Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So What?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
robert j
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by robert j »

outhouse wrote:
That does not make the church father a liar. He could be repeating what he had heard.
Let’s review more from the passage from Tertullian that I cited above,

"The dead bodies of their parents they cut up with their sheep, and devour at their feasts. … Nothing, however, in Pontus is so barbarous and sad as the fact that Marcion was born there, fouler than any Scythian, more roving than the waggon-life of the Sarmatian, more inhuman than the Massagete, more audacious than an Amazon, darker than the cloud, (of Pontus) colder than its winter, more brittle than its ice, more deceitful than the Ister, more craggy than Caucasus. Nay more, the true Prometheus, Almighty God, is mangled by Marcion's blasphemies. Marcion is more savage than even the beasts of that barbarous region." (Adv Marc 1.1.3-5)

Whether Tertullian actually believed all this hysterical rhetoric or not we’ll likely never know. But the point is that he went way over the top to discredit Marcion, and in the process impeached himself as a credible witness.
outhouse wrote:This is exactly my point, you don't have a clue who is or is not being truthful here. You just want to discredit these people for your own personal agenda. Shame on you.
And that’s exactly MY point --- no one knows who is being truthful in the writings of Tertullian and his ilk.
You yourself have questioned the credibility of the Patristics in another thread addressed to Stephan Huller,
outhouse wrote:The only people that believe this are the same church fathers that falsely attributed disciple/apostle names to the unknown authors work. This right here ruins any credibility in the path you have chosen, as we know they are running down a rhetorical road.
I do not want to discredit the patristic for my own personal agenda. I have chosen to discredit them as reliable sources of historical truths because I honestly believe that finding historical truths among the polemics and established church traditions can yield no more than very broad and inherently biased speculation.
Last edited by robert j on Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
robert j
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by robert j »

Stephan Huller wrote:no not naming calling. labelling
Regardless, you're just a lite-weight compared to Tertullian in that regard.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by Stephan Huller »

so your point is, ignore the earliest testimonies.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by Stephan Huller »

and the follow up question would be, ignore them in favor of what? what is the "better source material" you've discovered? the honest answer would be "your imagination" but I will let you answer
robert j
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by robert j »

Stephan Huller wrote:and the follow up question would be, ignore them in favor of what? what is the "better source material" you've discovered? the honest answer would be "your imagination" but I will let you answer
The five authentic letters of Paul addressed to his communities --- 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Philippians.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by Stephan Huller »

So these texts came to us without the aid of the Church Fathers? How do you think these beloved texts of yours were preserved? Were they delivered by the same stork that brought you to your mother?

Image

Only a small mind can love the fruit but hate the tree.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by Stephan Huller »

Another picture

Image

The caption - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The Catholic New Testament is above all else a Catholic collection of early Christian scriptures.
robert j
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by robert j »

Stephan Huller wrote:So these texts came to us without the aid of the Church Fathers? How do you think these beloved texts of yours were preserved? Were they delivered by the same stork that brought you to your mother?


Only a small mind can love the fruit but hate the tree.
Your ad-hominems tell much more about you than about others. I'm not particularly interested in debating with you --- life is too short.

But your question here is pertinent and deserves a a reponse. I have addressed the issue in bits and pieces before, but I'll provide a more unified response before too long. The rest of today is for much more important things.
outhouse
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by outhouse »

robert j wrote: --- no one knows who is being truthful in the writings of Tertullian and his ilk.

.

Yet you call them liars. So obviously you think you know.


And the ilk part is nothing more then your not understanding the context of his work.

But the point is that he went way over the top to discredit Marcion, and in the process impeached himself as a credible witness.
He may have never been a witness. He is the recorder, the scribe in charge. He is expressing his opinion.

And it does not matter that he is discrediting Marcion, everyone did. he had a bad reputation.

They all were trained to write in rhetoric, going over the top is acceptable and quite normal.



Why ignore the truth and education contained here ?

This places it all in context so you can start to debate this with something valuable.



http://www.academia.edu/787977/Eating_P ... nd_Century
outhouse
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Re: Patristics BELIEVED Paul Had a Written Gospel --- So Wha

Post by outhouse »

robert j wrote: You yourself have questioned the credibility of the Patristics in another thread addressed to Stephan Huller,

Yes, but I did not call them liars. I also never said they have historical credibility on all levels, nor implied it.

I said they were incorrect in one aspect. I never addressed if it was fiction, non fiction, mythology, rhetoric, theology, or truth they believed to be correct.
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