The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by rgprice »

I'm continuously struck by the degree to which the Gospel of Mark appears to more closely align with the theology of Marcion, in spite of the fact that all of the patristic testimony seems to plainly state that Marcion's Gospel looked more like Luke.

The opening of Mark is the closest thing to how Marcion apparently described Jesus coming into the world.

The beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ.

2 As it is written in the prophet Isaiah,

“See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying out in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
make his paths straight,’ ”

4 so John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 He proclaimed, “The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the strap of his sandals. 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove upon him. 11 And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.”

12 And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. 13 He was in the wilderness forty days, tested by Satan, and he was with the wild beasts, and the angels waited on him.

14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the good news of God 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news.”

In this form the work does state that Jesus existed as a person first who came from Galilee. But it is so close to saying something else, in fact closer than any other known Gospel.

It is odd that this narrative begins with Jesus coming out of from nowhere "from Nazareth".

If v9 is removed, we can imagine that it was John who saw the heavens torn apart, not Jesus. And what John saw was the Spirit of Jesus descending from heaven. The way we read this now it is a form of adoptionism in which Jesus sees the Holy Spirit descending onto himself, but so much of this would seem to support the view that this is a revision of a narrative that actually began with John seeing the heavens torn apart and seeing Jesus descend from the heavens.

V12-14 has never sit well with me. Its is very clunky, but has always been chalked up to "Mark's style". Something is odd here. V4 says that Joh appeared in the wilderness and that he was baptizing in the wilderness. Jesus, then, is apparently baptized in the wilderness. But v12 says that "he" is driven into the wilderness. But isn't he already in the wilderness?

Then in v14 we are simply told that John was arrested, but there is no context at all. Again this is chalked up to Mark's "quirky style". Then we are told that Jesus "came to Galilee". But we were just told that Jesus came from Galilee. V14 acts as if Jesus is coming to Galilee for the first time. It doesn't say that he returned.

It makes me wonder, if originally the narrative was that John was in the wilderness baptizing and John saw Jesus descend from heaven and John was the one who was tested by Satan and then arrested. And it was after John was arrested that Jesus showed himself in Galilee. Think about this in the context of the opening of the Gospel of John.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He himself was not the light, but he came to testify to the light. 9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to what was his own, and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth. 15 (John testified to him and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks ahead of me because he was before me.’ ”) 16 From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

19 This is the testimony given by John when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

In the context of John, we can imagine that John is testifying to seeing Jesus enter the world from heaven. And if so, is that not really what happened in the opening of Mark?

Maybe this is all nothing, and I'm just barking at shadows, but this looks suspiciously to me like a narrative that has been revised. I also still find it hard to believe that Marcion's Gospel looked more like Luke than Mark. There are so many aspects of Mark that fit Marcion's apparent theology better than Luke. It makes me wonder if there was really some other version of the Gospel that was a cross between Mark and Luke (keeping in mind that Luke is already very similar to Mark).
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by Giuseppe »

Some have proposed that the catholic editor "Luke" was giving indirectly a clue, while falsifying *Ev, about where really Jesus descended in his source:

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2 during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness.

What is the 'word of God'? Mark 4:14-15 may give the answer:

The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Hence, 'Luke' would be misunderstanding the real meaning of the descent of the word on John: that John heard the preaching of Jesus, and shortly after John is imprisoned by Herod (= Satan).

But in Mark 4:14-15 the meaning is that the people who hear the word and become prey of Satan are not innocent people. Hence if John is captured by Herod then it is a direct consequence of the his opposition to Jesus's message.

Which would fit with the scandal by John at the news about Jesus.

Therefore the baptism of Jesus by John is designed to eclipse the original opposition of John the first time he knew Jesus (or: about Jesus).
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by rgprice »

@Giuseppe This is brilliant actually.

"The Word" is of course Jesus himself in the Spirit.

Now John and Luke agree!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the Word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness.


In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit [the Word] descending like a dove upon him. 11 And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.”

Mark makes what's going on clear:
The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.


And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. He was in the wilderness forty days, tested by Satan

So is it not John in the wilderness having the Word taken away from him by Satan?

Again, I think the problem we are having is that gMark has been adulterated so we aren't seeing the original text.

But this is what I've been thinking all along.

Both Luke and John are derived from Mark. And neither Luke (Luke 3-23) nor John mention the name of the mother of Jesus. If both of these works are derived from Mark, why would both writers independently decide to remove the name of Jesus' mother? Instead we may postulate that both works are derived from a version of Mark in which Jesus' mother is not named.

Now, also, why does gJohn say John witnessed the Word come into the world and be made flesh and also Luke says that the Word came to John while he was in the wilderness. And we have an clunky opening in Mark, in which John is witness to the heavens being torn apart and a Spirit descending from heaven. We are told in canonical Mark that this is a Spirit descending "onto" Jesus, but is this not actually a later revision of an original narrative in which the Spirit that descended was Jesus himself!

If so, the openings of John and Luke 3 can be read in agreement with this narrative!

John is not the "baptizer of Jesus", John is witness to the descent of Jesus!

And now we finally arrive at a clear explanation of Marcion's theolgoy!
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13931
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by Giuseppe »

Assuming a proto-Mark where John the Baptist witnessed the descent of Jesus from above, it may be expected that Marcion was disturbed by this privilege given to John the Baptist, since for Marcion surely a best candidate for the role of witness of the divine status of Jesus is Paul.

I.e., if it was for Marcion, the heresiarch would have rather Paul witnessing the descent of Jesus from above in the incipit, not at all John the Baptist.

Hence Marcion would have removed John the Baptist entirely from the incipit, leaving only Jesus descending on Capernaum.

The Catholic editor of Mark, and the authors of Matthew and canonical Luke would have profited by this removal of John the Baptist (as mere witness of a deity) to insert again John the Baptist in the incipit, but this time in the role of the Baptizer of Jesus himself (as a mere man).
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by rgprice »

What's being proposed here seems to solve a number of problems.

Firstly, it would appear that John does not baptize Jesus at all. Rather John is baptizing himself or someone else who sees Jesus descend. (Keep in mind tat baptism was really a ritual cleansing not just a one-time thing performed by one person on another).

John being arrested actually paves the way for Jesus to begin his ministry. John knew his secret, so John had to be arrested to prevent him from revealing the secret.

This narrative was not adoptionist. Adoptionism was a result of modifying the narrative so that it wasn't Jesus who descended from heaven, rather it was just the Holy Spirit descending onto Jesus.

This also explains why Jesus seems to come out of nowhere. Why there is no narrative about the early part of his life. Originally he just descended from heaven and began his ministry. Only later were birth stories written, but there was nothing to fill in the blanks, because the real beginning of the original narrative was that Jesus literally just appeared out of think air.

Also explains John:
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted his testimony has certified this, that God is true. 34 He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.

Clearly, the first layer of John, parts of which are retained in canonical John, such as this passage, indicate that Jesus came "from above". And note that this testimony comes from John himself, this isn't Jesus saying this. So even though John 1:32-34 repeats the adoptionist formula, clearly this is from a secondary layer. Many other parts of John contradict it.

All of this would much more clearly explain the views of the so-called heretics. Instead of the heretical views being bizarre perversions of what should be an easily understood story about a real person named Jesus, the heretical views were derived from versions of the narrative that very clearly described Jesus descending from heaven directly. Not simply, as Tertullian would have it, "coming down to Capernaum", but rather the heavens being torn asunder and Jesus himself witnessed descending from heaven by John.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2609
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by StephenGoranson »

rgprice, above, in part:
"Firstly, it would appear that John does not baptize Jesus at all. Rather John is baptizing himself or someone else who sees Jesus descend. (Keep in mind tat baptism was really a ritual cleansing not just a one-time thing performed by one person on another)."

I don't "get" the first two sentences. The third, parenthetical sentence seems to deny different views about baptism.
RandyHelzerman
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:31 am

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Perhaps we should view the spirit descending on Jesus as a form of spirit possession. Jesus is possessed by a Holy Spirit, and then he goes around battling those possessed by evil spirits. The gods basically log onto humans, like we log on to World of Warcraft or something, duke it out for a while, and then log back off.

Jesus is always being driven around "straitway" by the spirit. And then he complains bitterly on the cross that god has forsaken him.

On this view, Marcionites and docitists can happily have scriptures which give Jesus a body, mothers, fathers, brothers, etc etc.
rgprice
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by rgprice »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2023 10:20 am rgprice, above, in part:
"Firstly, it would appear that John does not baptize Jesus at all. Rather John is baptizing himself or someone else who sees Jesus descend. (Keep in mind tat baptism was really a ritual cleansing not just a one-time thing performed by one person on another)."

I don't "get" the first two sentences. The third, parenthetical sentence seems to deny different views about baptism.
From Josephus:
2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.

The washing promoted by John washing was a ritual bathing, it wasn't just a one-time ritual. Example: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2006763

There is an assumption that John was performing a Christian baptism ritual, but nothing really indicates this.

Teeple identifies John 1:32-34, which describes the descent of the Spirit from heaven as a dove that rests on the man Jesus, as coming from the E redactor. Teeple identifies the E redactor as having knowledge of all of the synoptics and Acts of the Apostles. S and G are identified by Teeple as the more original sources, with E and R being later dedactors.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2609
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by StephenGoranson »

If John baptising Jesus were a recurring event, why is it described otherwise?
And if it were a ritual purity matter, why need John be at hand to do it?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The opening of Mark really Marcion's?

Post by Secret Alias »

Look at Cyril of Jerusalem. Has a different version of Mark 1:1 from memory.
Post Reply