Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

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RandyHelzerman
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

Post by RandyHelzerman »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:06 pm Yes, but if you agree with Turmel that the genuine bits of Paul make him not different from the Pillars, i.e. apocalypticist Jews, then the Dale Martin's point above would make more sense, doesn't it?
IMHO, It's treading on some dangerous ground. I mean, you can find a book or an article which will tell you anything you want to hear about Paul. And you can find a book or article which will tell you anything you want to hear about the gospel of Mark.

So you pick up, say, Dale Martin's book on Paul, and you are persuaded by it. Then you pick up somebody else's book on Mark. If it agrees with Dale Martin, you accept it. Otherwise you reject it. After a while, you've got a library of books, all of which reinforce each other, and you simply become immune to any evidence which might contradict your views. After all, no one book or article is going to persuade you that your whole library is wrong!!

The way I see it, unless you are in a state of pretty much perpetual confusion, wondering how all the pieces could ever fit together, you are doing it wrong :-) The evidence which has come down to us is confusing, contradictory, and doesn't fit into any one nice, neat, coherent theory or theology.

If your *conclusions about* the evidence aren't as confused and contradictory as the evidence is, well, its a sure sign that you are ignoring some of the evidence.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

Post by Giuseppe »

In whiletime I find a curious coincidence:
The Mandeans preserved the tradition of Jesus destroying the temple.

Were they so because they didn't fear the Roman Empire, since they lived beyond the borders?
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

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Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:02 pm In whiletime I find a curious coincidence:
The Mandeans preserved the tradition of Jesus destroying the temple.
Preserved the tradition, or made it up?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

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Giuseppe wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:26 am The Argument from Silence is considered strong by Fredriksen against the prophecy of the destruction of the temple being pre-70 CE, while the same scholar doesn't like to use the Argument from Silence (under the assumption of the totality of the seven pauline Epistles) against the historicity of Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

If this came from Paul, then it doesn't refer to the destruction of the temple, but it does refer to the death of Jesus.

As such, there isn't necessarily any contradiction by Paula Fredriksen.
Michael BG
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

Post by Michael BG »

The problem is that Paula Fredriksen believes Paul was interested in the historical Jesus and refers to him in his seven authentic letters. However, Paul makes it clear in Galatians that he did not learn about Jesus Christ from men (1:1, 1:11, 2:5), so Paul can’t be used to find out what Jesus said. Paul writes about the coming of Christ, but this should not be used as evidence that Jesus said he would return. The only thing which they have in common seems to be their belief that the end of time was near and would come before everyone alive would die.

One of the problems with Mk 14:57-58 is was there anyone there who passed on this information to the ‘Christian community’. John puts a spin on it so the saying is about Jesus’ resurrection (Jn 2:21). Mk 13:2 could be historical as it doesn’t have “and in three days I will build another”.

There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.

Is this what happened? Are not some of the stones still standing? The Western Wall of the Temple mount still exists today. “Just over half the wall's total height, … dates from the end of the Second Temple period … The very large stone blocks of the lower courses are Herodian” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall).
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Giuseppe
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

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I have asked via mail to Richard Carrier about what he thinks about Dale Martin's answer to Fredriksen. The answer:


I essentially debate his overall theory (just not this specific claim) in the hands of Bermejo-Rubio, which debate exists only in Italian at the moment though I will eventually get around to publishing an English version, but the key part is already in Jesus from Outer Space (the chapter on plausible Jesus replicates a summary of my debate with Bermejo-Rubio).

Like almost all scholars intent on this kind of thing, Martin is not even considering alternative hypotheses, much less comparing them in evidential merit. This is all just one giant possibiliter fallacy, starting with an assertion of what is possible, handwaving for several pages, and ending up with that possibility magically having become a probability. It’s simply not logically valid. Even his rebuttal is just apologetic rather than empirical (he is trying to make problems go away, rather than actually test his hypothesis empirically to a probability; this is exactly the move of Bermejo-Rubio).

Martin's theory fails to explain a lot of evidence (the absence of any idea of this in Paul, Hebrews, esp. Heb. 9 where it absolutely would have appeared if true, 1 Clement, 1 Peter, or any pre-Markan text; and the fact that Mark constructs this story out of information from Paul and outright states his intent to communicate by allegory rather than literally, and clearly intends this claim about the temple to be a metaphor for resurrection misunderstood by the elite, as a common theme of the elite, even the Disciples, never correctly understanding anything; and the fact that Mark is responding to the destruction of the temple and in fact justifying it and even having Jesus explicitly predict it, per the fig tree narrative and Mark 13, which demonstrates the opposite of embarrassment at this; and so on). Martin is acting like a literalist, rather than understanding why and how mythic narratives get made.

See the alternative and why it makes more sense of the evidence here:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/16428#examples

With background here:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/15934


(There are also problems historically; e.g. Martin seems unaware of the fact that his imagined law against weapons in cities is logistically impossible; people need them on journeys; so where do they store them if they can’t take them home? There was no such thing as lockers outside the city walls. Likewise, his attempt to rebut Fredriksen on the meaning of machaira is all possibiliter, no probabiliter: her point is that the term is ambiguous, commonly referring to an ordinary slaughter knife, which cannot have been outlawed in cities; he responds by simply agreeing with her it can mean either, and then handwaving that into somehow making his reading probable again. And so on.)

Indeed Carrier makes a good point in reading Mark's "false witnesses" and the Fourth Gospel as being basically on the same page about Jesus being misinterpreted by idiotic outsiders about what he really meant by "destruction of the temple". In addition, how could Mark be embarrassed by a Jesus destroyer of the temple if the same parable of the fig tree talks about a Jesus anti-temple?

Carrier refers to Paul and Hebrews as evidence for the his case but I have ceased to see both them as pre-marcionite letters (basically I follow Turmel there).
About the impossibility of lookers at the gates of a city for collecting the swords of the visitors, I think that it is far from being true during a holyday.


Frankly I am a bit disappointed by the fact that neither Carrier nor Kirby seem to like the Dale Martin's counter-argument that "what Paul ‘joined’ was no longer an anti-temple movement" and that it is the reason why in second century it was not more a question.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

Post by Giuseppe »

I see that Dale Martin has an indirect supporter in Gary Greenberg:

It is widely accepted that both Mark and John were written after the destruction of the Jewish Temple. If that were the case and Jesus had said that the Temple would be miraculously rebuilt if it were torn down, people at the time of the destruction might want to know why Jesus didn’t miraculously rebuild the Temple in three days, as he promised, especially if some believed him to have been resurrected.
Obviously, theological apologetics could explain this after the fact, particularly regarding Jewish rejection of Jesus and his opposition to Temple sacrifices. I think, though, both Mark and John acted to eliminate what would be an embarrassing promise that Jesus failed to keep. John explained away the problem by adding a gloss to Jesus’ statement, saying that Jesus wasn’t referring to the physical Temple being rebuilt but that “he was speaking of the temple of his body.”
Mark addressed the problem by presenting what would be an erroneous version of the statement and declaring it false. But was there an earlier tradition that Jesus had made some such statement? I think there was.

(Gary Greenberg, The Case for a Proto-Gospel, p. 305-306, my bold)
Michael BG
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Re: Contradiction in Paula Fredriksen's use of the Argument from Silence

Post by Michael BG »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:31 am I am satisfied in verifying positively that also Dale Martin does the same argument, contra Paula Fredriksen:
It seems that Paula Fredriksen’s answer to her question, ‘why was Jesus crucified, but his followers were not?’ is that ‘both Pilate and the priests would have known perfectly well that Jesus posed no practical threat: Jesus expected angelic armies, not earthly ones, to establish God’s kingdom. The crucifixion was addressed to the crowds who, at his final Passover, hailed him as messiah (Fredriksen 1999; 2008)’.

This does not mean that Jesus could not have spoken about the destruction of the temple. He could have seen it as part of his eschatology.

Also Paul might not be as silent as she states. Paul used the word ‘temple’ six times. Four of those times he is referring to Christians as being God’s temple.

1 Cor 3:16
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
1 Cor 3.17b
For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.
1 Cor 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?
2 Cor 6:16b
[16] For we are the temple of the living God;

The other two could refer to an earthly temple
1 Cor 3:17a If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him
2 Cor 6:16a What agreement has the temple of God with idols?

As Paul rejects the Torah for both Gentiles and Jews this means there is no need for the temple now. Could he also imply that after the end of time there will be no temple?
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