Was Josephus a Christian?

[Secret Alias]

Christians advocating for Josephus's Christian faith in the light of clear evidence to the contrary epitomizes the shortcomings of "studying" history. We're all dying. We're all living meaningless lives. The temptation to inject will to power into some field we wield even marginal influence (like this forum) seems ultimately too strong. Objectivity is very difficult. Even some professional scholars are only good at faking it.

Either (a) an early Flavian editor added the Vespasian 335 gematria reference or (b) a much later Christian scribe added the TF. It's basically that simple. Anyone who thinks Josephus was really a Christian is wasting his time in this field. Learn to garden.

It really is hopeless with humanity. No I can't prove that Josephus wasn't a Christian. But surely it is less likely that he was a Christian than he wasn't a Christian.

[John2]

Regarding the Shiloh = Vespasian idea, in ARN 4.5, R. ben Zakkai applies the word addir (אַדִּיר) in Is. 10:34 to Vespasian. And like Josephus, he too was captured and then released when Vespasian become emperor.

Our Scripture says that this Temple will be destroyed only by a king, as Scripture says, "And Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one."


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover

So here we see Josephus' contemporary applying not the Shiloh prophecy but Is. 10:34 to Vespasian and calling him a "king" (since addir has the sense of "majestic leader": https://biblehub.com/hebrew/117.htm).

While I don't think first century CE Jews had only one prophecy in mind about "the Messiah" (4QTestimonia is a collection of various "messianic" verses, for example) and I would include Shiloh among them, is there anything you can point to besides gematria as far as the oracle that Josephus applied to Vespasian goes? The DSS and Talmud apply it to a Davidic Messiah and not to Vespasian or any foreign ruler. So if there is nothing besides gematria going for the Shiloh = Vespasian idea, I would sooner think Josephus applied Is. 10:34 to him, like his contemporaries did.

[John2]

Ken has given me so much to chew on I'm not sure what to think now. But one thing is for sure, I'm not giving up on Ant. 20.200. I think it fits what Hegesippus says about James well and Origen certainly had the impression that it was the Christian James, and the use of "Christ" seems fairly neutral there.

So for me, Josephus mentioned Jesus at least once. Now, it can't be proven, but I still like the idea that Josephus' patron was Paul's patron Epaphroditus, who Paul mentions in the same breath as (and is his last named follower before mentioning) "those from the household of Caesar" in Php. 4:18-22. And at this time there was someone in the household of Caesar named Epaphroditus (Nero's scribe). And the way that Paul describes him in Php. 2:25-30 is similar to the way Josephus describes his patron (and Josephus also had access to "those of Caesar's household," of course).

And Nero's Epaphroditus was executed during the same time that Domitian was persecuting Roman elites who had "drifted into Jewish ways" (like Flavius Clemens and Flavia Domitilla). And Josephus disappears during this time too, since the last emperor he mentions in Domitian. So it's easy for me to imagine Josephus and his patron got caught up in this persecution, whether or not Josephus was a Christian, for promoting "Jewish ways."

Here is how Paul describes him:

But I thought it necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my needs. For he has been longing for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. He was sick indeed, nearly unto death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow.

Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may rejoice, and I may be less anxious. Welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor men like him, because he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to make up for your deficit of service to me.

And in the preface to the Antiquities, Josephus describes his patron this way:

.. a man who is a lover of all kind of learning, but is principally delighted with the knowledge of history, and this on account of his having been himself concerned in great affairs, and many turns of fortune, and having shown a wonderful rigor of an excellent nature, and an immovable virtuous resolution in them all. I yielded to this man's persuasions, who always excites such as have abilities in what is useful and acceptable, to join their endeavors with his.

So I figure this Epaphroditus supported Paul and then moved on to Josephus after Paul died, since they both had "abilities in what is useful" and were pro-Roman. And that would be one way Josephus could have learned about Jesus and James and John the Baptist (perhaps he mentioned them as a sop for Epaphroditus, and maybe they both paid the price for it from Domitian).

It also can't be proven, but I would go as far as suggesting that this Epaphroditus wrote Luke/Acts too, given that the author of those books appears to have used Josephus and Epaphroditus being "principally delighted with the knowledge of history."

I know, it's all speculation, but this is how the situation looks to me.

[Secret Alias]

Regarding the Shiloh = Vespasian idea, in ARN 4.5, R. ben Zakkai applies the word addir (אַדִּיר)

Who fucking cares? What's wrong with you? You can't tell the difference between what Josephus figured out about a living person who ACTUALLY RULED THE WORLD and took the scepter away from Judea and this shit? I think there is something wrong with religious people's brains. All your time in religious associations has trained you to misjudge, miscomprehend, misunderstand. It's pathetic. You're like a crack addict who will pretend to go along with whatever someone says just to re-introduce your addiction under the guise of rational interest. There's no way Josephus could have been a Christian. He could have believed the prophesy pointed to "Vespasian" with a good conscience. Why not? Better than what you are offering.

[Secret Alias]

It's always this fucking agenda. Sneaking in faith, "maybe ... " "could be ...," "here's something ..." Why? Why not believe that Josephus was like modern Trump supporter but one who (a) belonged to a cult which encoded numeric equivalence as equivalence in meaning and (b) where "Trump" had a name with the same value as Shiloh and where (c) "Trump" did the things ascribed to "Shilo" and (d) where the identification of "Trump" with Shilo was echoed in later historical writers. Stop wasting everyone's time with your pathetic agenda to bring your insecure faith in Jesus into every discussion.

[John2]

Regarding the Shiloh = Vespasian idea, in ARN 4.5, R. ben Zakkai applies the word addir (אַדִּיר)

You can't tell the difference between what Josephus figured out about a living person who ACTUALLY RULED THE WORLD and took the scepter away from Judea and this shit?

Ben somewhere in the misty past made a better case that Josephus had Dan. 9 in mind, given that Josephus says the world ruler would arise "about that time." The Shiloh prophecy is vague, saying only "until Shiloh comes" or such, nothing that would indicate that it would happen around 70 CE like Daniel.

9:25: Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

26Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

If I can find Ben's thread I'll link to it here, because I came away from it convinced that Josephus had Dan. 9 in mind.

[Secret Alias]

Ben somewhere in the misty past made a better case that Josephus had Dan. 9 in mind, given that Josephus says the world ruler would arise "about that time."

Good old Ben. Final word on everything. What's the point of finding new information like the name "VESPASIANUS" = Shilo when all we have to is cuddle up with everyone's favorite example of spending a lot of time studying religion and coming up with nothing new. No conclusions. No rocking the boat. Just study. Study. Study. And die. You're creating barriers to knowledge. I've just shown you the answer and you want to go back drinking the old wine. The old is good enough. You have no interest in any new ideas. None. Just the good old days. I can't believe that people come here just to hear themselves type.

[John2]

Ben somewhere in the misty past made a better case that Josephus had Dan. 9 in mind, given that Josephus says the world ruler would arise "about that time."

Good old Ben. Final word on everything. What's the point of finding new information like the name "VESPASIANUS" = Shilo when all we have to is cuddle up with everyone's favorite example of spending a lot of time studying religion and coming up with nothing new. No conclusions. No rocking the boat. Just study. Study. Study. And die. You're creating barriers to knowledge. I've just shown you the answer and you want to go back drinking the old wine. The old is good enough. You have no interest in any new ideas. None. Just the good old days. I can't believe that people come here just to hear themselves type.

I'm all for shaking things up, but that's not a new idea, and the gematria coincidence doesn't sway me.


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Je ... frontcover

[Secret Alias]

Doesn't sway you from your Christian faith? Wow. That's a shock.

[Secret Alias]

What does "convincing" have to do with it. Josephus clearly knew VESPASIAN's name was 335. I don't care whether this understand gives you as much comfort as Jesus Christ saving your soul when you die. Hard to compete with that.