Flaw with Marcion priority theory?

[Joseph D. L.]

Here is another rub to the question of priority: from what point of the sediment are we starting from for our excavation?

If we are looking at these texts like fossils, and concluding that those on top came after those below them, then we can brush our hands off and call it a day. But Marcion above all others is a sort of Piltdown Man that throws that sequential chronology out of a nice and succinct order and that is the reason for the controversy around him. Indeed calling Marcion Piltdown Man may be more appropriate than we realize. Marcion may be the biggest hoax the early church constructed, but it is a hoax that reveals exactly what is being covered up: that there is no evidence for these texts prior to when Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Epiphanius can date Marcion, an issue that was not at all at present to those who were contemporaries of his like Justin, Polycarp and Papias, and Hegesippus. It was only when the issue of canonization of church orthodox via holy writ needed to be settled that Marcion's name became as so much kindling for their ire and rue that accusations of co-opting Luke (or Matthew in some places in Irenaeus and Tertullian; or a shorter Mark for the Philosophumena; and even something appropriating John to Papias(!)). Heck, even dating Marcion is up in the air, as Tertullian puts him as coming into vogue ca. 140s, while Hippolytus and the Philosophumena have him in during the reign of Hadrian, and Papias has him as a contemporary to John, whom Irenaeus says active during the reign of Trajan; Justin speaks of Marcion's longevity with some astonishment.

So what do I think is going on? That Marcion himself, or rather itself, represents a growth of church history that became increasingly unpopular when the mores began to change and Judiazed Christians wanted more recognition from the Empire for protection against persecution. That is without a doubt why Justin began throwing people like Menander and Saturnius under the chariot, and why pseudo-Irenaeus would describe Polycarp as associating with Florinus of the royal hall; but the thing is the Marcionites were doing the same the same to them, but because they were actually older than these new fangled sects that Justin and Papias belonged to (what would you even call them? proto-orthodoxy? Isn't that just heterodox before being accepted?), and out of this back and forth cross chatter, new ideas and new texts are emerging, being accepted or dismissed, which ever could be used to further their respective agendas.

For convenience sake, here is my headcanon:

*first layer, 115ad-130ad, Marcionism 0.1: belief in a mystical translation into the body of the chrestus: only Pauline letters used: no written Gospel

*second layer, 140-155ad, Marcionism 1.0: a short Gospel with no title is published detailing practices: co-opted by Judiazers and expanded.

*third layer, 165-180ad, Marcionism 1.5: revised Gospel with Antithesis prefixed to it: the first judiazed gospel is discarded and Matthew in its place

*forth and final layer, 185-200ad, Marcionism 2.0: in light of Marcia's execution, Marcionism falls out of favour with the empire: orthodoxy wins: Marcionism moves east.

first note: I pointed out to John2 that the consensus timeline he promotes creates a problematic second Jewish Gospel, but I think that is exactly what happened

second note: Marcionism gets its name from Marcellina and Marcia. There never was a boogieman "man of Pontus". They probably called themselves Chrestians, and its founder probably was named Markos and had a Jewish name of John, but that knowledge became lost by the third layer and mythologized in Acts of the Apostles.

[Peter Kirby]

I never knew that your return would be so interesting, Joseph D. L. Thanks for sharing what you're thinking here.

[dabber]

Thanks Joseph DL. I really like the layers theory, does make lot of sense, going to re-visit this. Cheers Adam

[Joseph D. L.]

Thank you Peter. I know the last time my behaviour was becoming erratic, a consequence of real life bleeding into my participation on this forum. I apologize for the bad blood I caused.

[Joseph D. L.]

Thanks Joseph DL. I really like the layers theory, does make lot of sense, going to re-visit this. Cheers Adam

It is one theory among many. Scepticism is the key.

[DCHindley]

Here is another rub to the question of priority: from what point of the sediment are we starting from for our excavation?

...
For convenience sake, here is my headcanon:

*first layer, 115ad-130ad, Marcionism 0.1: belief in a mystical translation into the body of the chrestus: only Pauline letters used: no written Gospel

*second layer, 140-155ad, Marcionism 1.0: a short Gospel with no title is published detailing practices: co-opted by Judiazers and expanded.

*third layer, 165-180ad, Marcionism 1.5: revised Gospel with Antithesis prefixed to it: the first judiazed gospel is discarded and Matthew in its place

*forth and final layer, 185-200ad, Marcionism 2.0: in light of Marcia's execution, Marcionism falls out of favour with the empire: orthodoxy wins: Marcionism moves east.

first note: I pointed out to John2 that the consensus timeline he promotes creates a problematic second Jewish Gospel, but I think that is exactly what happened

second note: Marcionism gets its name from Marcellina and Marcia. There never was a boogieman "man of Pontus". They probably called themselves Chrestians, and its founder probably was named Markos and had a Jewish name of John, but that knowledge became lost by the third layer and mythologized in Acts of the Apostles.

That is an interesting summary.

I've been long interested in Marcion's Antitheses and the alleged editions of a Gospel and Apostolikon (a Pauline letter collection). The tertiary (scholarly) literature on A. is both sparse and a bit dated, but I have not researched the matter exhaustively.

Unfortunately, the former (the A.) has not been preserved, and the latter is entirely informed by 3rd party Christian heresy hunters who were more interested in "refuting" Marcion's ideas (as they imagined them to be at least) and loved to make Marcion look foolish.

I don't think Marcion was a fool. Successful risk takers like a ship fleet magnate was probably a quite able person. He would have time available to study things of interest to him. It showed, at least in Antitheses, based on the summaries of it by his opponents. Right now, I am inclined to see Marcion's Gospel and Apostolikon as fictions by his opponents, "constructed" from his Antheses. YMMV.

May I ask what sources you based your reasoning upon for this stratification?

I'd like to follow up on them. Thanks!

DCH

[Joseph D. L.]

Hey DCHindley. Long time.

The only sources are the ones available to us. I am aware of no new discovery about Marcionism, so the only resources I have are church attestation and my own biased observations.

Like you I think the Evangelion ascribed to Marcion is, if not fully fraudulent, then representing a later development within the Marcionite theology. The argument that many Marcion priority supporters make frames it as being more fixed than the orthodoxy's canon; but we know, if Galatians 3 and Antithesis are anything to go off of, they were not above changing their own texts to counter heresies made against it.

The Marcion character has given me no end of troubles, but I am / have convinced myself that the nautical claims are a memory of the founder claiming to be a new Noah as opposed to a new Moses. Whether he really was Aquila working for Hadrian or Peregrinus Proteus's forays into Judaism is beyond my depth, but there needs to be a reason why this theology had to come about. Discovering that would bring the evidence we have into alignment.

[davidmartin]

Chrestus looks like a non-Jewish version of Wisdom
I think the XS of the gospels is the power Jesus encounters and works with and the idea Jesus actually is XS was a slightly later development, and the epistles are located in this later stratum. The only problem is, it's utterly against the consensus which says 'damn, the epistles say they are early, let's all believe it and watch all our problems disappear'