wilderness = order (?)

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MrMacSon
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wilderness = order (?)

Post by MrMacSon »



... מדבר, midvar (Strong's #4057), mean[s] a "wilderness".
In the ancient Hebrew mind the wilderness, in contrast to the cities, is a place of order.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/word.htm


Like the Hebrew noun דבר (davar, Strong's #1697), translated as "word", midvar (מדבר) is derived from a parent root, דר (DR), which means "order."



To me, this raises the prospect of the meaning of Jesus (+/- others) in the wilderness:

1. Mark 1:12–13:
12 At oncea the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.
  1. after rising out of the water at his baptism and "the Spirit descending on him like a dove"; and the voice from heaven declaring him 'my Son'
2.Matthew 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-13:
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested/tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God’.” [Deuteronomy. 8:3]

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city/up to a high places and had him stand on the highest point of the temple/showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
  • “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone’,” [Psalm 91:11,12]
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test’.” [Deuteronomy 6:16]

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only’.” [Deut. 6:13]

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


A < 3 minute apologetic video:



eta
(Is the mind the devil (?))
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
lsayre
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Re: wilderness = order (?)

Post by lsayre »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:05 am (Is the mind the devil (?))
You may be on to something here.
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MrMacSon
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Re: wilderness = order (?)

Post by MrMacSon »

The Greek interlinear has ἔρημον - erēmon - in Mk 1:12 and ἐρήμῳ - erēmō - (Strongs 2048) in Mk:13 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/1.htm

Strongs says it's an Adjective : "of a person: deserted, abandoned, desolate"


Thayer's Greek Lexicon

1. adjective solitary, lonely, desolate, uninhabited: of places, Matthew 14:13, 15; Mark 1:35; Mark 6:32; Luke 4:42; Luke 9:10 (R G L), ; Acts 1:20, etc.; ἡ ὁδός, leading through a desert, Acts 8:26 (2 Samuel 2:24 the Sept.), see Γάζα, under the end of persons: "deserted by others; deprived of the aid and protection of others, especially of friends, acquaintances, kindred; bereft"; (so often by Greek writers of every age, as Aeschylus Ag. 862; Pers. 734; Aristophanes pax 112; ἔρημος τέ καί ὑπό πάντων καταλειφθείς, Herodian, 2, 12, 12 (7 edition, Bekker); of a flock deserted by the shepherd, Homer, Iliad 5, 140): γυνή, a woman neglected by her husband, from whom the husband withholds himself, Galatians 4:27, from Isaiah 54:1; of Jerusalem, bereft of Christ's presence, instruction and aid, Matthew 23:38 (L and WH texts omit); Luke 13:35 Rec.; cf. Bleek, Erklär. d. drei ersten Evv. ii., p. 206 (cf. Baruch 4:19; Additions to (6:13); 2 Macc. 8:35).

2. a substantive, ἡ ἔρημος, namely, χώρα; the Sept. often for מִדְבַּר; a desert, wilderness (Herodotus 3, 102): Matthew 24:26; Revelation 12:6, 14; Revelation 17:3; αἱ ἔρημοι, desert places, lonely regions: Luke 1:80; Luke 5:16; Luke 8:29. an uncultivated region fit for pasturage, Luke 15:4. used of the desert of Judaea (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 18, 1), Matthew 3:1; Mark 1:3; Luke 1:80; Luke 3:2, 4; John 1:23; of the desert of Arabia, Acts 7:30, 36, 38, 42, 44; 1 Corinthians 10:5; Hebrews 3:8, 17. Cf. Winers RWB under the word Wüste; Furrer in Sehenkel see 680ff; (B. D., see under the words, and (American edition)).

https://biblehub.com/greek/2048.htm


  • From Thayer's^

    .ἡ ὁδός, leading through a desert, Acts 8:26 (2 Samuel 2:24 the Sept.)

    I don't get that^: ἡ ὁδός = road [or 'the way'], but Acts 8:26 simply finishes αὕτη ἐστὶν ἔρημος : 'this is [the] desert'
    • (which is oh so topical because in Acts 8:26 'this is [the] desert' is wrt to Γάζα ie., Gaza)

  • The Hebrew version of 2 Samuel 2:24 has מִדְבַּ֥ר - miḏ·bar - the Wilderness [of Gibon/Gibeon/Geba (which I presume = Gaza)]
    • מִדְבַּ֥ר / miḏ·bar:


      Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

      desert, south, speech, wilderness

      From dabar in the sense of driving; a pasture (i.e. Open field, whither cattle are driven); by implication, a desert; also speech (including its organs) -- [so (reordered)] speech, desert, south, wilderness.

      https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4057.htm


      • Which is not as explicit as the OP above:
        MrMacSon wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:05 am

        ... מדבר, midvar (Strong's #4057), mean[s] a "wilderness".
        In the ancient Hebrew mind the wilderness, in contrast to the cities, is a place of order.

        https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/word.htm


        Like the Hebrew noun דבר (davar, Strong's #1697), translated as "word", midvar (מדבר) is derived from a parent root, דר (DR), which means "order."


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MrMacSon
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Re: wilderness = order (?)

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:03 pm

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

desert, south, speech, wilderness

From dabar in the sense of driving; a pasture (i.e. Open field, whither cattle are driven); by implication, a desert; also speech (including its organs) -- [so (reordered)] speech, desert, south, wilderness.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4057.htm


Which is not as explicit as
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:05 am

... מדבר, midvar (Strong's #4057), mean[s] a "wilderness".
In the ancient Hebrew mind the wilderness, in contrast to the cities, is a place of order.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/word.htm


Like the Hebrew noun דבר (davar, Strong's #1697), translated as "word",
mid.var (מדבר) is derived from a parent root, דר (DR), which means "order."

While there's not the sense of dabar/davar as 'the word' or 'speech' in the Strongs' Exhaustive Concordance, one might still get a sense of an inter-relationship between (1) the meanings of wilderness and (2)(a) "angels attend[ing] him" (in Mark 1:2) and (2)(b) "every word that comes from the mouth of God" (in Matt. and Luke 4:4):
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:05 am
1. Mark 1:12–13:
12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.
2.Matthew 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-13:
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested/tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God’.” [Deuteronomy. 8:3]

(and perhaps being 'ordered' as a result)
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