Mary was not a Virgin and Jesus was a son of a ...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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drg55
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Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:28 am

Mary was not a Virgin and Jesus was a son of a ...

Post by drg55 »

It is important to read the Bible critically, that is not with a hostile attitude, but as simple as remembering what you have read as you go along and comparing datum A with datum B.

It is such a confused mess that it seems to go right over the top of people. It helps to have scholarly work such as Ehrman, to give some clues as you go. One thing that is apparent is that the Gospels are constructed from source material as well as the opinions of the authors. There is material which is contradictory, and so discordant as likely to be true.

I write this at the festive season which we are told is all about family. "Holy Mary, mother of God, blah blah", what did Jesus think?

How about Mark 3:31-35 when Jesus is informed his family is outside he rejects them:
31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.
32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.
34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!
35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”
He is clearly suggesting that his Mother and brothers are not doing God's will. And also it is obvious they are not part of his inner circle.
Yet the same verse is in Luke 8:20-21 (see also Luke 11:27), and this the Gospel which has the angel explaining to Mary her Virgin birth 1:34-5. (In Matthew an Angel appears to Joseph in a dream: Matthew 1:20-24)
Well, this might have been because just before, after Jesus had been expelling demons, his family tried to as we would say in modern parlance "certify him mad" Mark 3:21.
"When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, 'He is out of his mind.'
This is beginning to read like a modern deprogramming attempt of a "cult" leader. Nothing really changes, the use of psychiatry as a weapon by people who have a problem with someone, rather than the person having a problem.
(The problem lies in the group not the person it is attributed to). Jesus would have said they had demonic possession.

And to put the icing on the cake, Jesus hated his family and the inability of the early Church to deal with this led to them being airbrushed (sorry kids "photoshopped") as saints.
Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."
In fact Jesus expected his followers to walk out on their families, while he had sympathy for the poor he may well have left the families of the fishermen who became his disciples destitute. Mark 10:29

A very ugly picture is coming to light.

And to prove he is serious Matthew 10:34-46
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Verse 35 is a quote from Micah 7:6, it tends to confirm that Jesus had a rift with his family by justifying it in scripture.

However, first of all everyone is fallible, and if we reject the divinity of Christ and see him as a man then warts and all that's what you get. Genius is often frustrated by everyday people. But sometimes genius is self absorbed and fails to take account of the needs of everyday people. Jesus must have generated quite a bit of social friction, some clearly his own doing.

Some of these passages appear slightly suss, in the verse that follows Luke 14:26 we read "whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple" However this is entirely non sequitur as it is in the middle of the Gospel, most likely it was inserted by an early source who was horrified by the preceding "hate your family" verse and thought it made an appropriate explanation. The same quotation appears in the Gospel of Thomas, verses 55 "..whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me." The same line is in the Matthew quote, it is a different theology to that of Jesus, wherein one enters the Kingdom of Heaven by loving God and one's neighbour as oneself. (Mark 12:23-24)

The fact that the quotes are in the Gospel of Thomas gives the possibility that the Canonic Gospels quoted Thomas or Thomas quoted them, or they both used the same proto Gospel source. What mythicist would put in their Gospel that the hero was nearly confined as insane by his family? It is also possible that some of the quotes are from Jesus and other similar quotes were invented to promote a particular theology.

There is a Gnostic explanation for this, as the physical universe is seen to be a distraction and thus ones family is agreement with the physical universe. Whereas as spiritual beings, we are all "sons of God".

But we see the Church today in the main preaching materialism as happened almost immediately after Christ. While charity is important in emergency situations, Luke 12:13-21
Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one's life does not consist in the abundance of possessions..
However I certainly think it is reasonable to love your family as spiritual beings (whereas the family as such, is to perpetuate the physical body, and is deeply ingrained in people as automatic behaviour). And didn't Christ say to love your enemy and blessed are the children? Seems to be some contradiction here and a great deal of forensic work necessary to separate out sources and "added in" theology.

It seems the rift with his family is real, as it is stranger than fiction. Therefore we can evaluate the virgin birth as false because if it were true Mary would have supported Jesus throughout his life. This is also evident in Romans 1:3 from Paul. But at same time it also proves Jesus lived and some of the material about him is accurate.

Did Mary seek to have Jesus declared mad or was it Joseph?

When people pray to Mary is it Jesus's mother or some other construct, a feminine principle or even converted pagan Goddess? If you find value in it I am not one to argue. You would in reality be praying to God.

(references are largely from Ehrman, interpretation entirely my own)
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