antithesis-y bits of the gospel

[Secret Alias]

At the core of Adversus Marcionem is Matthew as well. Look at the number of references to Matthew 5:17. Look at the beginning of Book Four the references to Matthew. At first Matthew opposed Marcion and then at a later stage when the four gospels were created it was Luke, Luke was the anti-Marcionite gospel. Papias was talking about Marcion when he had John say that Mark had faults.

[RandyHelzerman]

*chuckle* I don't remember creating this thread.....have we been moderated?

[Secret Alias]

It's standard. No one is being singled out.

[RandyHelzerman]

At the core of Adversus Marcionem is Matthew as well.

Ok, it's getting late where I am, so forgive me if this is fuzzy headed, but it seems like Peter Kirby's got a point too. Everybody--whether friend or foe of Marcion--agrees that there are three books attributable to Marcion: the Evangelion, the Apostolicon, and the Antithesis. Its really suggestive that Irenaeus *and* Tertullian seem to be attacking Matthew, but is that enough? Seems like making plausible that any of those books didn't actually exist would require more spadework--which you may well have already done, as I said you believe *a lot* about Marcion, and *a lot* which I haven't seen shared anywhere.

But let's go down this rabbit hole for a bit.....stipulate, Marcion actually considered Luke AND Matthew to be interpolated. Stipulate further that his evangelion is therefore Mark + whatever is in Luke and Matthew which isn't interpolated.

Well, how do you detect interpolated stuffs? One plausible tell would be, well if it is in either Luke, or in Matthew, but not in both or in Mark, then somebody has probably tacked it on.

but....The stuff which is in Matthew and Luke which is not in Mark....that's the very definition of Q. The evangelion would be Mark + the Q material. which, if we look at recent reconstructions of the Evangelion, is pretty much what they are, more or less. It would be interesting to go through, say, some of Dr. Mark Bilby's databases and see exactly the degree to which this is true, for various reconstructions of Q and the Evangelion.

If, OTOH, you believed that Marcion thought that Matthew and Luke were interpolated because he had a PREEXISTING text of the Evangelion, i.e. that the evangelion came first, then came Luke and Matthew.....well, you no longer have to postulate Q. Luke and Mathew are not expansions of Mark by Q, but expansions of the Evangelion.

I know this goes against The Fundamental Theorem of NT Studies, which states, "Every problem in NT studies can be solved by postulating another gospel" so the idea probably doesn't have much surface probability. I'm going to bed now before I further embarrass myself.

[Peter Kirby]

It's standard. No one is being singled out.

Thanks SA.

Yes it's just the start of a new topic.

[maryhelena]

It's Matthew chapter 5.

What is Matthew, chapter 5?

P.S. I'm still trying to get my arms around exactly what you believe re the whole Marcion thing. And the biggest obstacle is that you believe *so much* about Marcion that any individual post you make must needs be elliptical. Sometimes to the point of obscurity, as in the instant case.

Did you ever write out your whole position on Marcion, in enough detail that a bonehead like me can follow the arguments, everything you believe about it and why? If such a thing exists I'd love to read it.

Said many years ago.....

So, what is your position on Marcion, Stephan? For the life of me I can't fathom it out from your posts. Did Marcion, in your view, exist as a historical person? And if so - what dating are you giving to him?

I'm really interested what Stephan's view of Marcion is today. Ideas develop as one learns more - so perhaps Stephan could clarify where he is today regarding Marcion.

Questioning the existence of a historical Marcion split from dating Paul

https://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sh ... l?t=323474

Marcion Was a Heretic Invented in the Third Century to Gloss Over the Controversies Associated with St Mark in Second Century Palestine.

The bottom line for me, my friends, is that we can be fairly certain that Justin never wrote an Against Marcion, nor did Irenaeus - despite what the testimony of the present edition of Against Heresies has to say about that. Noe we have Jerome admitting that a great many spurious texts were written in the name of Modestus, thus cast doubt on the 'Against Marcion' associated with the writer. Why is it so unlikely given the forgery, manipulating and editing associated with the Against Heresies tradition that a third century editor was trying to prove that a great number of third century witnesses knew about the existence of a fictitious 'Marcion' the head of the Marcionites?

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...-in-third.html

Unfortunately I can't find a link to the post from which the following quotes are taken from. The post was on FRDB on 03-17-2013, Dating Marcion.

Towards a New Understanding of Marcion and Secret Mark

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/

wednesday, march 20, 2013

It's true - I have a lot of ideas about Marcion. I've considered the name 'Marcion' as a Greek diminutive form of Mark based on a suggestion by Hilgenfeld. Then I considered the idea that it was an Aramaic formation. But now I think I have it right. I've been working at this for over twenty years and I think the best explanation of the name is that that Μαρκίων was the designation of a collection of writings (= the Marcionite New Testament).

<snip>

But the idea that Μαρκίων might have been similarly conceived as a collection of writings associated with Mark never occurred to me.


<snip>

and why there is such confusion in general about the dating of 'Marcion' is because the original debate was not about a man named Marcion but a collection of writings called Μαρκίων

Marcus Julius Agrippa was such an interesting historical figure to me because of course he is the historical Marcion. All scholars need to do is read the actual reports which survive in the rabbinic writings and they will see this as clear as day. He was a Jew who embraced the idea of another god besides what became known as 'the Jewish god.'
https://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2012 ... urney.html

Over 10 years ago - so don't hold me to ideas that I might have posted back then We all develop ideas - no point in staying still - ideas must move along, they need to be going somewhere...intellectual evolution and all that.

Over to you Stephan - for an update on your position on Marcion.

[RandyHelzerman]

*chuckle* Secret Alias has just been outed!

Everything is starting to make more sense now lol

[maryhelena]

*chuckle* Secret Alias has just been outed!

Everything is starting to make more sense now lol

Nothing new here.... Stephan Happy Huller has been on the forum since 2013. A number of people, Stephan, as well as myself, moved here when FRDB closed down.

All one wants from Stephan is to put his cards on the table, to clearly let forum members know what his position is when they seek to engage with him.

[Secret Alias]

I have changed my positions many times. I only count publication by an academic journal or publisher as representing my actual opinion and even then these could change in light of new evidence. The forum is filled with Japanese soldiers inflexibly marching on long after the war was lost. I am not one of them. I do not stand by any of my many opinions unless I have published them properly.

[maryhelena]

I have changed my positions many times. I only count publication by an academic journal or publisher as representing my actual opinion and even then these could change in light of new evidence. The forum is filled with Japanese soldiers inflexibly marching on long after the war was lost. I am not one of them. I do not stand by any of my many opinions unless I have published them properly.

Great - however, it would be kind to let those responding to you, to let them know what your present position on Marcion is - otherwise frustration of your responders could arise.

And...The Real Messiah book - and it's position on Marcus Julius Agrippa (II). We got an update re the two Agrippas on youtube - but that seemed to be as far as the update went.

Anyway, a Marcion update would be appreciated - especially since Marcion seems to be all over the place these days....