Josephus again

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Josephus again

Post by Joseph D. L. »

JarekS wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:58 pm The story of Jesus started in Ant. And was developed by ghostwriters in letters, in gospels. With invented tradition to cover the past. Is Jesus a historical person? It is a question to Josephus. Probably He is historical
Michael Crouch thought that Jesus ben Ananias was the only authentic an allusion to Jesus in Josephus. The parallelism of "woe to Jerusalem, and "woe also to me", and the boulder that crushes both Ananias and the Temple wall at the same time, in conjunction with the prophecy of the Temple destruction, the crucifixion, and the resurrection.

At first I thought this idea was a bridge too far, but the more I pondered it the more it made since to me.

The problem for me with anything involving Josephus is Hegesippus. Hegesippus seems to be the source where the family of Jesus tradition comes from, and he is probably a redactor of Josephus. It may very well be that, to counter heresies, Hegesippus took from Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius to craft a pseudohistory of the church that antedated any possible heretic's claim. I propose the account of James the Just and the parallel in Gospel of Peter as evidence. The death of James is said to be what eventually causes the Temple to be destroyed, where he is thrown off a wall of the Temple, while in the Gospel of Peter Peter is in hiding because the Jews believe he will set fire to the Temple. Hegesippus likely had Peter, saw Ant. 20 where James is killed by stoning and believed these were referring to the same history.

Matthew 20:20-28 states that both James and John will be martyred together, and a textual tradition in Papias states that both were killed by the Jews. Not only does this put into question where the idea of John of Patmos comes from, it also begs the question of where this idea came from. Well, we already have a James being stoned to death in Josephus, and Ananias is a variant of Yohanan, and it would be appropriate that the two's respective deaths would begin and end the prophecy of the Temple's destruction.
JarekS
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Re: Josephus again

Post by JarekS »

Not allusion to Jesus. Source material.

Someone took the inspiring stories about sign prophets & rebels from Josephus. This is how Christ was created. The creator of the Apostle Paul decided that he would not develop the material about the earthly Jesus - it was enough that he was there and someone noticed him. He created a narrative about Paul.

But other, more impudent creators said - what's the problem with completing Jesus' biography? Disciples, family, passion, and later birth, genealogies.

A copy of Josephus was being made in some scriptorium. Someone read it and said - what beautiful heroes to recycle...
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MrMacSon
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Re: Josephus again

Post by MrMacSon »

JarekS wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:58 pm The story of Jesus started in Ant.
  • What part/s of 'Ant.' Why do you think the story of Jesus started there?

JarekS wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:58 pm Is Jesus a historical person? It is a question to Josephus. Probably He is historical.
  • Why is it a question "to Josephus" ?
  • What's the answer? What would Josephus's answer be (if you like)?
JarekS
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Re: Josephus again

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Because only Josephus could say whether or not he invented all these Sign Prophets and where he found out about them. He is also a creative historian with a literary flair and great imagination who does not like boring stories
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Josephus again

Post by Joseph D. L. »

I'm more of a 'one hand washes the other' kind of guy myself.

Hegesippus was definitely using Josephus for some heinous propaganda and the conspiratorial side me wonders how much of Josephus is authentic and how much is really Hegesippus. If Luke-Acts and Mark drew upon Josephus, the question we should be raising is not why? but who? I'm pointing my finger right at that guy .
JarekS
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Re: Josephus again

Post by JarekS »

I'm betting on the anonymous ghostwriter, his fellow editor and the publisher who financed it. But I can be wrong.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Josephus again

Post by MrMacSon »

I wonder if Heggesippus is a sock-puppet-literary-device of Eusebius
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