Invention of Macrina the Younger?

[Peter Kirby]

It seems prima-facie improbable that Gregory Nazianzen and Gregory of Nyssa should collaborate on the invention of a fictional Macrina the supposed sister of Basil and Gregory of Nyssa. It may well be that much of what Gregory of Nyssa says about his sister is hagiography not history but that is another matter.

Andrew Criddle

I'm glad you said it first, but this is my first impression as well. Emphasis on first impression because it's perhaps possible that reading this study will overcome the apparent, prima facie improbability.

[JarekS]

short https://apcz.umk.pl/SPLP/article/downlo ... 4441/61350

[JarekS]

Leucius Charinus You are welcome. Marcion a is a disciple of Simon in Stromata 7.17. In other sources Marcion is a disciple of Cerdo who was a disciple of Simon. Just black PR.
The trick is asking legitimate questions and looking for answers according to the right criteria. If Marcion is a theologian for biblical scholars, they are lost. If they ever come to the conclusion that he is a leader and apply the right criteria, such as responsibility for the entire project of building a church organization, they will quickly distinguish the propaganda and black PR of his opponents.
I am not interested in the historicity of a person - I prefer to focus on creating content methods and his participation in the process of building the Church

[Leucius Charinus]

short https://apcz.umk.pl/SPLP/article/downlo ... 4441/61350

A good summary.

Leucius Charinus You are welcome. Marcion a is a disciple of Simon in Stromata 7.17. In other sources Marcion is a disciple of Cerdo who was a disciple of Simon. Just black PR.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "black PR" thanks. Negative propaganda?

I am not interested in the historicity of a person - I prefer to focus on creating content methods and his participation in the process of building the Church

We may be simply used to using different terminology to describe the same thing. For example the article argues that Macrina is fictional. I have been in the past inclined to view and express a fictional Marcina as a Marcina who has zero historicity. This terminology may not be a standard in the field. How do you view this? Thanks.

[JarekS]

The discovery at Nag Hammadi exposed the lies of the Orthodox about the Gnostics, and yet biblical scholars reconstruct Marcion's theology based on the accusations of the Orthodox who were hostile to him. This is something I don't understand at all. How can so many people not notice the techniques of black PR, propaganda and disinformation.
Marcion sold the same Christ as the Orthodox - that's why he was terrible. Because he was effective.

I do not have a humanities education - I use my own experience in marketing and content sales.

[Leucius Charinus]

Asked the author the following question:

I have one small question: Do you think it is possible that (saint) Anthony was an invention of "Athanasius"?

I put "Athanasius "in inverted commas due to the comment of Erasmus "nothing is easier than to place any name you want on the front page of a book" [1]

If I had to nominate a "based on" addition I'd jump to name Pachomius.



[1] Fake OR Real: A History of Forgery and Falsification, Edited by Andrea Mork. page 123

The author's response:

I think the case of Anthony is quite different from the one of Macrina as he appears in other sources independent from Athanasius (I assume he was the author as again there are external sources to confirm his authorship).

The image of Anthony in Vita is for sure fabricated, but such a person I think must have really existed. In the case of Macrina there is literally nothing except two Gregories.

[Leucius Charinus]

The discovery at Nag Hammadi exposed the lies of the Orthodox about the Gnostics, and yet biblical scholars reconstruct Marcion's theology based on the accusations of the Orthodox who were hostile to him. This is something I don't understand at all. How can so many people not notice the techniques of black PR, propaganda and disinformation.

My explanation is that the "Orthodox" are - and have always been - viewed within biblical scholarship (and especially "church history") as "authority figures". Most of them bear the title of "Saints of the Church" and some of them - many centuries ago - have been elevated to the status of "Doctors of the Church" within the tertiary education system of the church industry. They are the horse's mouth. As such "the techniques of black PR, propaganda and disinformation" are not noticed.

I do not have a humanities education

Ditto.

I use my own experience in marketing and content sales.

My experience is 17 years as a taxi driver (2 million kms) and 25 years as an IT manager and large scale database management - 10 years for the largest patent and trade mark attorney firm in Australia. They may be worlds apart but from my perspective fake news / history and instances of exceptions to systematic data integrity are easy to identify,

viewtopic.php?p=171542#p171542

[JarekS]

Leucius: Sometimes I feel like a participant of a school trip to the zoo during which everyone says that there is a monkey in the cage where we are standing when I see a jaguar in it. And they compare this jaguar (Marcion) with other monkeys around (Tertullian, Epiphanius, Irenaeus, Justin). And come on, convince anyone since we differ in such a basic assessment. But I will not stop trying.

[andrewcriddle]

We seem to have solid evidence of the existence of Macrina the Elder the grandmother of Basil Gregory of Nyssa and (if she existed) Macrina the younger.

Given the widespread practice of naming children after their grandparents it is prima-facie plausible Basil and Gregory of Nyssa had a sister called Macrina.

Andrew Criddle

[JarekS]

It's probably some cultural difference. Przyszychowska does not claim that any Macrina did not exist as a person. In the methodology of historical research there are no tools to prove the non-existence of a person. Przyszychowska claims that the biography of Macrina The Younger is a literary construct created by the Cappadocian fathers for personal purposes.