The List of the Priestly Courses

[Charles Wilson]

"My God in boots, the Ontological Argument is sound!!!"

--Bertrand Russell

As Realizations go, I know how BR felt, if I may be allowed to say so. I had a moment similar to this almost 2 years ago. It was a thoroughly modern moment, spelunking into Internet Caverns, seeing if *THIS* or *THAT* particular word combination would be productive. This time around, it certainly was. It was a search for words that meant nothing to me a few short years prior. I followed a link and simply stared at the computer screen for an eternity, plus around 20 minutes. There it was:

"...In addition, several piyyutim clearly indicate that among the Jews of the Galilee, it was also believed that the Hasmoneans belonged to the Course of Immer (Elizur 2004: 307), and, surprisingly, this course is also among the only ones attributed to a settlement in the Upper Galilee (Jabnit, a few kilometers from Meiron)...".

The book that this quote came from was from Uzi Leibner, Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee, ISBN 978-3-16-149871-8. This was the end of a chapter in my life that took 8 years M.O.L. to get to and now is going on 10 years. I recently had a chance to pick up the entire book (for a few weeks, anyway...) and it is a simply a wonderful piece of work, solid scholarship, on the ground *REAL* pottery, building foundations, written material and on and on. For 8 years, at every step of the way, I would play a game of, "If this is True, then there should be something else that follows that is also True...". One thing leads to another. 'N it always did. It lead to Dr. Leibner's book. I must also mention Shulamit Elizur, whose patience with me I have already used up. She forwarded a few helpful bits from work she had done. "Sorry to bother you, SE, but thanx...". All good, always...

Almost always, anyway. Our kind, warm and always friendly Poster, "steve43", produced an interesting retort to some of the Thesis: The claim here is that at least a third of the NT revolves around the events at the death of Herod and the throne being occupied by one Archelaus and this all happened in 4 BCE and at a "Duplicate Passover" in 9 CE. The Priesthood, the Hasmoneans, Mishmarot all just come tumblin' down for all to see. "It's there, it really is there!" I used to say. I still do. steve43, however, didn't see it that way. See, events at Herod's death would have NECESSARILY taken more time than was possible to achieve in the Time Frame of a few weeks from Herod's death to the Passover of 4 BCE. It cannot be true that the events described in Josephus and Symbolically in the NT happened both in 4 BCE AND 3 BCE. "What to do?" One thing leads to another. Only...what is this "Other" yer talkin' about, Charlie?

Leibner provides an answer. It opens up problems for several Time Lines but, as usual, there is SOMETHING going on. I may have reached the limits as to what I can see but that's OK.

Leibner opens the last chapter of his book by looking at Priestly Settlements in Galilee. It seems that there was a list taken straight out of 1 Chronicles 24 that matches up the Priestly Courses with various Settlements:

"It is difficult to escape the impression of something "too good to be true." The idea that in the midst of the chaos that reigned following the First or Second Jewish Revolt, 24 Priestly Courses arrived from destroyed Judea to Galilee and settled seems highly unlikely. Furthermore, the suggestion that each course then settled in a different location, until each location came to be identified the members of the Course that had settled there, appears too facile and too literary, even if only parts of the courses were involved..."...From the earliest historical source concerning the list... it is clear that from the beginning, the list was of symbolic significance and this is even more emphatic in the liturgical piyyutim and in the placement of the inscriptions in synagogue halls...

"If the aim was to preserve the status of the course active at the time of the Temple, one might expect that names of the original priestly settlements in Judea would be mentioned, as in the case of the genealogical lists, rather than noting the settlements to which they arrived as refugees. This difficulty becomes even stronger in view of the piyyutim. Not only is there no prayer for the return of the courses to their settlements in Judea nor even mention of such settlements, often the piyyutim mourn the exile of the courses from their settlements in Galilee and repeat the request for their return to their places, in Galilee..."

The Lists were there in several Settlements. The unifying feature appears to be the Hasmoneans, who had conquered and displaced the Galilean Political Groupings. Not much is to be found in Rabbinical Works, except for a few statements, at least one of which was CRITICAL of the Settlements.

I want to go on a bit but will defer until a few comments appear. There is an elephant in the room here with who, what, when, where and why but there certainly appears to be a LITERARY List of Priestly Courses settling in Galilee. There was a certain Story of a character who comes to us as "Peter" and he appears to have come from "Upper Galilee", possibly from the Mishmarot Course Immer and he may have come from Jabnit. He comes to Jerusalem to Passover as a child and participates in a Slaughter and saves a Priest.

The Story can by mapped by anyone who cares to follow the Trail. "It's there. it really is there!" The question remains, "Is any of this TRUE"?

CW

[John T]

I have not a clue what you are talking about.

Are you talking about clever acrostic poems(lyrics) to describe past events or something else?

Sincerely,
John T

[Sheshbazzar]

It would be fantastic if Charles did know what he is talking about. But given the above convoluted and uninformative prose the possibility of him being able to provide any comprehensible explanation appears exceedingly remote.

[Charles Wilson]

I have not a clue what you are talking about.
Are you talking about clever acrostic poems(lyrics) to describe past events or something else?

1. Thank you for reading the Post, John T.

2. Let me start at the end and work backwards for a change. Go to 1 Chronicles 24 and note that David appoints 24 Groups from 2 of 4 leaders and these 24 Groups have the Duties of Temple Service. These 2 leaders were named "Eleazar" and "Ithamar". The other 2 leaders died before they could contribute Group Names. 16 of the 24 Groups are from "Eleazar". "Eleazar" is all over the place in Jewish History. To the Greekies, "Eleazar" becomes "Lazarus" and there IS a connection here.

3. Look up "Hasmonean Dynasty" and realize that this Family is very important to the History that ends with Herod. Herod killed as many Heirs to the Rulership of the Hasmonean Line as he could. The Hasmoneans were both Rulers and High Priests and the Hasmoneans emphasized the Temple Worship in their Rulership..

4. To what Temple Group did the Hasmoneans belong? That would be Jehoiarib, of the House of Eleazar - the First Group of the List in 1 Chronicles 24. Sorta' like the "Vanguard of the Temple Service Groups".

5. Simple, yes? NO! It gets complicated and complicated in a hurry. Make sure you get the Service Groups idea (See: "Mishmarot") and understand that there are people who believe that this List came from God through David. Take away the Rulership and Priesthood from some of these people and you've got some serious Anger Management Issues! Like maybe World War against the Romans and the Stooge Proxies. the Herodians.

Remember reading about these Political Wars in the New Testament? Me neither...Until...

6. I began reading the NT, especially early Mark, with a different Intentionality. "What if the Miracle Stories of Jesus were rewritten from documents that served some other purpose - like mebbe a Political Story of the War Against the Romans?":

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

My favorite thought experiment these days: Get a friend, an understanding friend, and find a good sized rock, one that will fit in the palm of your hand. Hold it under your friend's nose, shaking it. Scream at him: "If my people were quiet, the very stones would shout..." Has a different meaning, doesn't it? The question arises, "Is there any reason to believe that this new Intentionality you support has meaning to any set of events in History?

Yes.

Not a History of a "Jesus" character but of several events that were composed to a different Purpose, an Anti-Roman Purpose.

7. The Signal Event I examined was the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. There is a Coup against Herod and it is all set up, waiting for completion at Passover. Only...Herod dies about a week too soon. He is in Jericho and Those in Control in Jerusalem have son Archelaus conveniently placed in charge. Archelaus is a Party Kind of Guy and when things heat up, he orders in the Troops and "at least" 3000 die according to Josephus.

Got all this down? Good.

8. Something is very wrong here. Things might not have happened as described. Or that quickly. Funeral Processions take time, everything takes time and there is precious little of it between a certain eclipse and Passover in 4 BCE.

9. Remember the Temple Groups mentioned above? It is possible to easily compute who was on Duty for the Passover of 4 BCE and for any other week as well. This "Anchor Date" is determined by what is written about the Service in Jerusalem during the Destruction of the Second Temple. "Who was on Duty during the Destruction of the Second Temple?"

Jehoiarib.

10. Trust me when I tell you, everything you could possibly imagine about the Hasmoneans, Kings - and a Queen - and Service Groups and the Priesthood just drop out of the sky with a reading that looks at the House of Eleazar as being THAT IMPORTANT. The 16th Group of the House of Eleazar - "Immer" - is Front and Center in all of this. " 'mmr " becomes a word pun which comes to us as "Lamb", or, "Immar-Yah", "Lamb of God" in the NT.
[[Edit:]] Just to make it clear, Immer is on Duty at Passover in 4 BCE according to the Math. The Stories, esp. the "Miracle Stories" are rewritten from this event at Passover in 4 BCE.

'N it all comes out of that List of 1 Chronicles 24. 'Cept that it doesn't. John T, here is the point of all of this and feel free to ask for any explanation you need in order to make sense of this.

11. The List of the Priestly Courses is most probably a Symbolic List of Symbolic Value. The point of the book I referenced shows that the List of the 24 Priestly Courses who settled in Galilee after the Destruction of the Second Temple settled in 24 (maybe 23, actually) different towns across Galilee and there is no rhyme or reason for this to have occurred in those places or for the Hymns to have been as they were, praying for the return of the Priests, not to Judea but to Galilee! There are multiple copies of the List and there is no reason for the List! "Who wrote it? When? Why?"

12. At least one Scholar sees that the description of the death of Herod given by Josephus is "from a different source" than the Source of Nicholas of Damascus, figured as the main Source for the Herod material. So we may or may not have the correct date for the Jehoiarib Duty at the end of the Second Temple. We may or may not have a Story from someone who lived in Upper Galilee who came from Immer to witness an Atrocity in Jerusalem at Passover. We may or may not have references to other Groups besides the mention given in Luke. We may or may not have Josephus as he did or did not write in Antiquities... and Wars of the Jews.

13. Somewhere in this is the New Testament which was a Supersessionist Religion that told of a savior/god who did away with all of the Ritual of the Old. Only...it's still there and there are Advocates for it and they KNOW whereof they speak. I mean, they KNOW and they left material that could only have come from these people who were intimately connected with the Ritual and even the Mathematics of that Ritual. ESPECIALLY the mathematics of Judaism. In another Post, I quoted Teeple (Thanx, Adam) who identifies a Source in John who was implied to be of pagan background, not Jewish. If True, this guy came on the scene MUCH later.

Lookit: Someone knew. He - or they - managed to get a History into the NT. There was a List. It was composed - or ordered composed - for a reason that was subverted by these people. At the end of Leibner's book is a small poem translated by Elizur. It reads:

"Instead of a sound of weeping/ a Devine voice was heard in Malchijah (the fifth course)/ the youngsters gained victory in Antioch"/
The four heads of the tiger (a symbol for the Greeks)/ were shattered by the youngsters of Immer (the sixteenth course)/ in command of the guard (God)
To announce in the streets of Jabnit/ that the spear has slashed every Greek tongue"

Where else is the victory in Antioch by the Priests of Immer known? What victory? Who wrote this? This is where I am at now and I look ahead without knowing, as I have done for 10 years. I am still amazed at it all.

CW

[John T]

I followed and agreed with you on points 1-4 but you lost me starting at number 5. The list/order of names/courses did not come from God to David but by casting lots; "They organized them by lot..." 1Chron24:5

#6, The charge of rewriting the gospels to appease the Flavius dynasty is much more likely than your 'anti-Roman purpose' and neither proves Jesus and his movement was not real.
#7 Please cite Josephus.
#8 What is this 'certain eclipse and Passover in 4 BCE'?
#9 I don't know how to prove that the regular course of duties was still intact from the time of David to 70 A.D. Apparently, after rebuilding the temple only Zadokite priests could minister. Ezek. 40:46, 43:19, 44:15 and 48:11
#10 &#11 I missed the point. The 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. along with the regular courses (if there still was any at that time) or are you saying they had a transportable tabernacle for sacrifices, i.e. the Ark?
#12 So what?
#13 Perhaps the Samaritans or Nazorites?

Frankly, the way you write is harder to follow than Robert Eisenman but it is clear you know something.

However, wouldn't your point, (whatever it is precisely) be mute if scholars are correct in postulating that Ahitub was a non-Israelite?

Still, I wish you luck in finding exactly whatever you are looking for but I am of no help.
A word of encouragement, I spent years asking pastors how they knew which year Jesus was resurrected but they could only cite church doctrine. I finally found the correct answer in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Turns out the Essenes had a different calendar for Passover, which proved Jesus was crucified in 30 A.D.

Perhaps your answer also can be found within the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Sincerely,

John T

[Charles Wilson]

I followed and agreed with you on points 1-4 but you lost me starting at number 5. The list/order of names/courses did not come from God to David but by casting lots; "They organized them by lot..." 1Chron24:5

Yep. No argument there... From me anyway. Josephus, who apparently doesn't know who performs Sacrifices in the Temple, tells of the people demanding of Archelaus that he appoint a High Priest of "greater piety and purity..." Herod's last speech is about how he performed more in his reign than the Hasmoneans did in 125 years. If my language was a bit too elliptical here, I apologize. I'm not asserting that the Temple List came from God. Someone else might be, however...

#6, The charge of rewriting the gospels to appease the Flavius dynasty is much more likely than your 'anti-Roman purpose' and neither proves Jesus and his movement was not real.

Both ideas are True. I am an advocate for Atwill's Thesis. The Unification of the Contradictions comes from the Flavian rewrites. "The Lunatic" is possessed by "Legion". To Atwill, "Legion" applies to the Seditionists who will be cleansed (murdered) by Titus. To me, "Legion" means what it implies. The "Original Story" was concerned with the War AGAINST the Romans. You can easily gauge the success of the Roman rewrites...

#7 Please cite Josephus.

Josephus, Antiq..., 17, 6, 5:

"But now Herod's distemper greatly increased upon him after a severe manner,...and he also gave a great deal to their commanders, and to his friends, and came again to Jericho, where he grew so choleric, that it brought him to do all things like a madman; and though he were near his death, he contrived the following wicked designs.

Temple Slaughter:
Ant..., 17, 8, 4 through 17, 9, 3. +/- depending on how deep you want to go.
Wars..., 2, 1, 1 - 3, +/- depending on how far you want to go.

#8 What is this 'certain eclipse and Passover in 4 BCE'?

Ant..., 17, 6, 4.

#9 I don't know how to prove that the regular course of duties was still intact from the time of David to 70 A.D. Apparently, after rebuilding the temple only Zadokite priests could minister. Ezek. 40:46, 43:19, 44:15 and 48:11

You have a good point here. From the Return from the Exile is the important part of this. Jehoiarib was NOT of the returnees. The Hasmoneans were to be assigned membership on their return (from memory here...). This is another point of the importance of Immer. The Hasmoneans are accused of having Greek Blood and thus are not worthy to be High Priests. If some of the Hasmoneans come from Immer, that criticism is minimized.

#10 &#11 I missed the point. The 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. along with the regular courses (if there still was any at that time) or are you saying they had a transportable tabernacle for sacrifices, i.e. the Ark?

Key Point: Many of the Miracle Stories were rewrites of a Story that can be reconstructed from the material that is in the NT. Not von Daniken stuff, not full mooner stuff. A consistent Jewish Story that tells of a boy named Peter who came from Galilee to the Passover of 4 BCE. The soldiers are ordered in and in the Death, this child saves a Priest WHO FACES CERTAIN DEATH. 12 years later, this child is a Priest who, at the urging of Jairus, comes back to finish the job that was cut short 12 years earlier. The Priest and Peter are intercepted and the Priest is crucified. Peter ( or another survivor...) returns to the Temple to finish out his days.

#12 So what?

The Time Lines are everything here. Josephus wrote in around 75 and 95 for the Great Works. Is what we have now what he wrote then? Our first copies of Josephus are 1000 years after these dates - again from memory. Whatever, someone has appeared to have inserted material in 2 places. The Mishmarot Group @ Temple Destruction is Jehoiarib and the math works for Immer being on Duty @ 4 BCE. BTW, I'm quite content to keep everything at 4 BCE and 9 CE. That's A-OK with me. Let me put it this way: "If it could be shown that the Mishmarot material was an INTEGRAL part of the NT, would that be of importance to know? Of course it would.

#13 Perhaps the Samaritans or Nazorites?

Possible. I look at Michael Weitzman's work and the Peshitta material. Everything keeps pointing to "Upper Galilee" and beyond. Remember also the "Nazorite Section" of Numbers 6: No Nazorite can drink vinegar products. Somebody knows something (again)

Frankly, the way you write is harder to follow than Robert Eisenman but it is clear you know something.

Thanx, I think. It was a lot easier to explain 8 years ago when all I had was some basic Priesthood material. This is much deeper than I could ever see. No Christian skoller wants to look at it and no Rabbi has any interest. I keep pluggin' along...

However, wouldn't your point, (whatever it is precisely) be mute if scholars are correct in postulating that Ahitub was a non-Israelite?

Maybe that's a new avenue for me to explore. Thanx.

Still, I wish you luck in finding exactly whatever you are looking for but I am of no help.

You already have been a help. Thank you.

A word of encouragement, I spent years asking pastors how they knew which year Jesus was resurrected but they could only cite church doctrine. I finally found the correct answer in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Turns out the Essenes had a different calendar for Passover, which proved Jesus was crucified in 30 A.D.

Eisenman and Wise, The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered. The authors of the DDS kept MANY calendars since, according to E&W, they expected to take power in Jerusalem again and install their Solar Calendar. Of great importance is the fact that they used the Priestly Courses as a check on the accuracy of the various calendars.

CW

[Sheshbazzar]

I followed and agreed with you on points 1-4 but you lost me starting at number 5. The list/order of names/courses did not come from God to David but by casting lots; "They organized them by lot..." 1Chron24:5

If there were an all knowing god, how could a lot ever come out any different from what his omniscience knew it would be from the foundation of the ages?
With such divine and infallible determinate foreknowledge it would be impossible that a lot would be any other than what had been foreseen and foreordained by god from the beginning.
Thus lot or no lot, the list/order of names/ courses was foreseen and foreordained and the results immutable in their being according to what bible god had known from the beginning of time. All 'chance' and 'free will' being excluded by predestination.

[Sheshbazzar]

Do either of you recognize that the ten digits of your two hands constitute a most accurate calendar calculator?
That they are the ancient measuring tool, and standard of measurements employed in the Torah and the Prophets?

[Leucius Charinus]

#6, The charge of rewriting the gospels to appease the Flavius dynasty is much more likely than your 'anti-Roman purpose' and neither proves Jesus and his movement was not real.

Both ideas are True. I am an advocate for Atwill's Thesis.

A Roman conspiracy to invent Jesus: http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/

• Who was Jesus? Why is there no historic archaeological evidence of his existence?
  Who wrote the Gospels? Why were they written in Greek, rather than Hebrew or Aramaic?
  How did the Christian religion come to be centered in Rome?
  Why were the first Christian pope and earliest saints all members of the Flavius Caesar ruling family?

Good questions.

The Unification of the Contradictions comes from the Flavian rewrites.

Don't write off the Neo-Flavians.

"The Lunatic" is possessed by "Legion". To Atwill, "Legion" applies to the Seditionists who will be cleansed (murdered) by Titus. To me, "Legion" means what it implies. The "Original Story" was concerned with the War AGAINST the Romans. You can easily gauge the success of the Roman rewrites...

A bit at a time. What about this "Lunatic" business. Which Lunatic? The one in Josephus who had a single message until the Roman war machine put an abrupt end to it? What about this "Legion" business? Is the "Legion" in Matthew and if so where?

Priestly_divisions




LC

[Stephan Huller]

The only reason you are an Atwill's hypothesis is because you are Atwill.