The Mythicism Files

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by Peter Kirby »

MrMacSon wrote:I'm also interested in the links among (i) the Tacitus, Pliny-the-Younger, and Seutonius references to Christians; and (ii) the alleged-Hadrian reference to Christians. All four were intimately link by inter-personal relationships.
You took the bait. :cheeky:

The Hadrian reference is 4th century. The Suetonius connection was just a red herring.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Mythicism Files

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Peter Kirby wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:I'm also interested in the links among (i) the Tacitus, Pliny-the-Younger, and Seutonius references to Christians; and (ii) the alleged-Hadrian reference to Christians. All four were intimately link by inter-personal relationships.
You took the bait. :cheeky:

The Hadrian reference is 4th century. The Suetonius connection was just a red herring.
??

The alleged original 2nd century Hadrian passage is reported to have been reproduced in the 3rd or 4th century ...

DM Murdock/Acharya S discusses the alleged original Hadrian passage in Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection and said the letter was "reproduced by the Sicilian writer of the 3rd C Vopiscus (Vita Saturnini 8), who claimed to have taken it in turn from a writer named Phlegon." She discusses others who mention the passage as genuine, including DH Tscirhner; Bishop Dr J G Lightfoot, who considers it then (ie. 143 AD) to be mocking Christians; and mentions in several 'relatively reliable' publications [top p 280]. She does allude to others who dismiss it.

Her passage is on this is worth a read - Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, via Google Books

There is also reference here Biblical Repository and Classical Review which says
All the productions of Hadrian have persished except one letter written to Servianus, which Vopiscus transcribed from the works of Phlegon, a freed man of Hadrian, and inserted in the life of Saturninus [Vita Saturnini 8]
and cites "c. 8. p. 485 of 'the book' cited"; which I presume is "Vita Hadriani. Scriptorium historiae Augustae. ed Lips"

There are also vague references to 'Giles 1986' in some passages that refer to Hadrian's passage, but they don't clarify 'Giles 1986' further
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by Peter Kirby »

MrMacSon wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:I'm also interested in the links among (i) the Tacitus, Pliny-the-Younger, and Seutonius references to Christians; and (ii) the alleged-Hadrian reference to Christians. All four were intimately link by inter-personal relationships.
You took the bait. :cheeky:

The Hadrian reference is 4th century. The Suetonius connection was just a red herring.
??

The alleged original 2nd century Hadrian passage is reported to have been reproduced in the 3rd or 4th century ...

DM Murdock/Acharya S discusses the alleged original Hadrian passage in Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection and said the letter was "reproduced by the Sicilian writer of the 3rd C Vopiscus (Vita Saturnini 8), who claimed to have taken it in turn from a writer named Phlegon." She discusses others who mention the passage as genuine, including DH Tscirhner; Bishop Dr J G Lightfoot, who considers it then (ie. 143 AD) to be mocking Christians; and mentions in several 'relatively reliable' publications [top p 280]. She does allude to others who dismiss it.

Her passage is on this is worth a read - Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, via Google Books

There is also reference here Biblical Repository and Classical Review which says
All the productions of Hadrian have persished except one letter written to Servianus, which Vopiscus transcribed from the works of Phlegon, a freed man of Hadrian, and inserted in the life of Saturninus [Vita Saturnini 8]
and cites "c. 8. p. 485 of 'the book' cited"; which I presume is "Vita Hadriani. Scriptorium historiae Augustae. ed Lips"

There are also vague references to 'Giles 1986' in some passages that refer to Hadrian's passage, but they don't clarify 'Giles 1986' further
So you're telling me that you can't work out that this quote originates from the Augustan History, a fourth century text, and that it does not go back to the second century Hadrian.

And this is why mythicists can't have nice things... you know, like wide academic respectability. As long as this kind of thing goes on.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Mythicism Files

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Peter Kirby wrote: So you're telling me that you can't work out that this quote originates from the Augustan History, a fourth century text, and that it does not go back to the second century Hadrian.
"this quote"? The letter to Servianus attributed to Hadrian?
The Christians among them [the Egyptians] are worshippers of Serapis, and those calling themselves bishops of Christ scruple not to act as the votaries of that God. The truth is, there is no one, whether Ruler of a synagogue, or Samaritan, or Presbyter of the Christians, or mathematician, or astrologer, or magician, that does not do homage to Serapis. The Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is by some compelled to worship Serapis, and by others, Christ.

History of Letter-writing: From the Earliest Period to the Fifth Century by William Roberts
There is a proposal, as I have explained in my previous post, that "Vopiscus transcribed [or reproduced Hadrian's alleged letter to Servianus (with that passage)] from the works of Phlegon, a freed man of Hadrian, and inserted [it] in the life of Saturninus" [Vita Saturnini 8].

Frankly Peter, I don't understand why you can't see that provides some veracity to it, or why you are being so contrary. Of course it's not 100% proof of authenticity, but it provides some degree of a record of events to improve chances of validity
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by andrewcriddle »

MrMacSon wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote: So you're telling me that you can't work out that this quote originates from the Augustan History, a fourth century text, and that it does not go back to the second century Hadrian.
"this quote"? The letter to Servianus attributed to Hadrian?
The Christians among them [the Egyptians] are worshippers of Serapis, and those calling themselves bishops of Christ scruple not to act as the votaries of that God. The truth is, there is no one, whether Ruler of a synagogue, or Samaritan, or Presbyter of the Christians, or mathematician, or astrologer, or magician, that does not do homage to Serapis. The Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is by some compelled to worship Serapis, and by others, Christ.

History of Letter-writing: From the Earliest Period to the Fifth Century by William Roberts
There is a proposal, as I have explained in my previous post, that "Vopiscus transcribed [or reproduced Hadrian's alleged letter to Servianus (with that passage)] from the works of Phlegon, a freed man of Hadrian, and inserted [it] in the life of Saturninus" [Vita Saturnini 8].

Frankly Peter, I don't understand why you can't see that provides some veracity to it, or why you are being so contrary. Of course it's not 100% proof of authenticity, but it provides some degree of a record of events to improve chances of validity
The Letter refers to Servianus as consul which gives a supposed date of 134 CE it refers to Hadrian's sister as Servianus' wife but she died in 131 CE it refers to Verus i.e. Aelius as Hadrian's adopted son but he was adopted in 136.

It is a forgery.

Andrew Criddle
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by MrMacSon »

andrewcriddle wrote: The Letter refers to Servianus as consul which gives a supposed date of 134 CE it refers to Hadrian's sister as Servianus' wife but she died in 131 CE it refers to Verus i.e. Aelius as Hadrian's adopted son but he was adopted in 136.

It is a forgery. Andrew Criddle
and I have seen another date for the letter - 143AD*; it's possible I have repeated a translocation of the numerals 3 & 4; or the date is wrong altogether, but the letter is genuine.
  • maybe 134 AD??
Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by andrewcriddle »

MrMacSon wrote:
andrewcriddle wrote: The Letter refers to Servianus as consul which gives a supposed date of 134 CE it refers to Hadrian's sister as Servianus' wife but she died in 131 CE it refers to Verus i.e. Aelius as Hadrian's adopted son but he was adopted in 136.

It is a forgery. Andrew Criddle
and I have seen another date for the letter - 143AD; it's possible I have repeated a translocation of the numerals 3 & 4; or the date is wrong altogether, but the letter is genuine.
Hadrian died in 138 CE. It is unlikely he wrote a letter in 143

Andrew Criddle
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by Peter Kirby »

Speaking of mythicism blogs, there is an interesting Italian one here:

http://www.mitodicristo.blogspot.it/

It's fairly exciting to hear new voices in a time when some of the older ones (e.g., Earl Doherty) have withdrawn from the conversation.

Google Translate is not that bad with Italian.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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cienfuegos
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by cienfuegos »

Peter Kirby wrote:Speaking of mythicism blogs, there is an interesting Italian one here:

http://www.mitodicristo.blogspot.it/

It's fairly exciting to hear new voices in a time when some of the older ones (e.g., Earl Doherty) have withdrawn from the conversation.

Google Translate is not that bad with Italian.
Can you elaborate on what is going on with Earl Doherty? Is he having health problems?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Mythicism Files

Post by neilgodfrey »

cienfuegos wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:Speaking of mythicism blogs, there is an interesting Italian one here:

http://www.mitodicristo.blogspot.it/

It's fairly exciting to hear new voices in a time when some of the older ones (e.g., Earl Doherty) have withdrawn from the conversation.

Google Translate is not that bad with Italian.
Can you elaborate on what is going on with Earl Doherty? Is he having health problems?
Unless someone else has more recent information Earl has been simply taking a break from it all. Other priorities.
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