Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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MrMacSon
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Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

Post by MrMacSon »

.
Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson - http://www.radikalkritik.de/AntiquaMater1.pdf

A summary is provided here -
Radicalism in England: Johnson
In 1887, Edwin Johnson published in London anonymously the book "Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins" (http://www.radikalkritik.de/AntiquaMater1.pdf), which continues in the footsteps of B. Bauer, Naber, and Pierson. It examines the testimonies about early Christianity from outside scripture.

It is proved that there's absolutely no reliable witness whatsoever on the life of Jesus or the apostles. Tacitus, if authentic at all, which may be seriously doubted, may easily refer to messianic Jews at Nero's Rome, conflated with Christians under Trajan's time. Justin Martyr, around 150, only has rudimentary knowledge about Jesus and the Apostles, he has no whatsoever knowledge about scripture besides the Tanakh. The Gospels and epistles are nowhere in sight.

Christianity evolved from a quietist Jewish Diaspora movement named provisionally Hagioi. They represented a liberal, spiritualized view of the Torah, with deeper moral attachment, but relaxed exterior signs of Judaism, while still sticking to the selected role of the people of Israel. Philo's allegoric teaching about one or more mediators between the transcendent God and the material world is adapted. Gnosticism, a pre-Christian religious movement, is identified as the origin of Christianity as a religion apart from Judaism and decadent forms of pagan cults.

The originator of Gnosticism may be Simon Magos of Samaria, who emerged under the rule of Claudius and attracted many followers with exorcisms, magic, prophesies, and mystic, salvific ceremonies. This gave rise to Christianity and a doctrine about heaven, earth, and hell, only to be understood pneumatically. A redeemer is the epiphany of the good (Chrestos) God to spread the doctrine and teach the mysteries.

Thus they have been called Chrestoi, which got corrupted into Chrestiani, then Christiani, by the Romans. They invented the symbolic story about the Christ's death under Pilatus. They pirated the myth of Dionysos Eleutherios, a self-sacrificing Godman for the salvific sake of humanity. Paul of the letters is to be seen barely as a historical person, but rather as a possibly idealized Marcionite. Marcion is the reformer of Gnostic doctrine which was [probably] invented by Simon Magos.

The letter of Galatians is the Marcionite refutation of the anti-Marcionite Acts of the Apostles. The twelve apostles are an utterly figmentary legend. Churchianist Christianity is a product of the Antoninian period.

In any case it's an utterly absurd nonsense to try to understand the Gospels as source for historic research.

http://www.egodeath.com/drewshistorymyt ... oc51777081

This is Klaus Schilling's summary in English of Arthur Drews' article "Die Leugnung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart", on the history of the denial of the historicity of Jesus, at http://www.radikalkritik.de/leugnung.htm at Radikal Kritik. Edited, formatted, and uploaded with Schilling's permission by Michael Hoffman.

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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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I read this a while ago, and just today I dipped into Edwin Johnson's other book... and lost interest quickly.

You can get a summary from the same Hoffman:

http://www.egodeath.com/uwetopperonedwinjohnson.htm
The Christian church developed in the benediktinischen monasteries of France (Paris and Lyon) around 1500, which became catholic church fathers by incompetent monks written, which is New Testament as consequence of it developed. There are no older texts, and contents betray the time: Beginning of the printing.
That is indicated as well known as 1460, and already in the next twenty years first Bibles are to have been printed. If all were back dated later these Bibles, which Johnson at least suggest, I would have to correct the chronological acceptance of Johnson around approximately fifty years.
Anyhow I became hellhoerig here and tried, my version that it in 12. Jh. a first beginning of Christian religion to have given could to save. But that is not easy in relation to the knowledge of a theologian, who represented the truth, and which reads with humor and in the consciousness of its weaknesses: The reformation Martin Luther was the first attempt to down-struggle the rising catholic church of France. Before there was no church in the actual sense, i.e. as representatives of the Biblical teachings. The creation of the Bible texts, which was accomplished by the Reformatoren like the catholics with large eagerness in few years - partly together, partly against each other -, put only the foundation-stone for Christian churches, equal which kind.
My draft, which is papacy in Avignon two hundred years rather developed, suffers according to Johnson at two errors: The two hundred years are invented, and the fact that the monks of Avignon, (first was a Tibeter, as seems to me) as first Popes of the catholic church to apply could, a fiction is like all earlier.
On which chronology critics Johnson developed, whether he considered e.g. Newton's late work, knows we only andeutungsweise. As also Johnson writes: "perhaps still nobody does not have this thought had, which I communicate here, anyhow I it anywhere read." But it read Hardouin (P. 20 center) and quotes it (P. 81, likewise P. 98). Of this Jesuiten I had reported 1998 (P. 14) that he 28 years long (1687 to 1715) on behalf of the French king and the church meeting the documents of all Konzilien of the 1. Century up to its own lifetime arranged again and gave change. Ten years later - thus after further corrections - the work was released and is considered since then than obligatory. It was main it, which invented this time novel and best knew. And it was also the none, which said at that time with this clarity.

The most important thoughts of Johnson's seem to be me the following:
Before the Tridentini council (alleged starting from 1545 in Tirol and north Italy) there was still no Vulgata, at least no complete or recognized version of latin Bible. In the following twenty years it develops only. Luther's portion of the Bible creation is enormously, particularly in the letters of the Paulus, which reflects the controversy between rivaling Benediktinern and Augustinern etc. and therefore so complex, contradictory and incomprehensible are. Also some Augustinus texts might come from Luther or its environment.
Since however the text of the Tridentinums was written by Hardouin, we do not know again, what was really decided at that time. Nevertheless - so Johnson - he tells us the whole procedure of the board round. That must probably be because of it that the truth could not be masked anyway, at least not for theologians. And the people did not read the decrees of the Tridentinums.
From Johnson it follows that "reformed" a moenchische movement were, which one can call late form of the Urchristentums perhaps two generations after emergence of the Christianity, which for Johnson not before center "15. Century "to have been can. The catholic church developed only as reaction in addition, evenly on the Tridentinum. Here table "stood for the" round, which Johnson uses as term for the "large action".
When earliest date for trustworthy messages from the time of the reawakening of the sciences, to which time of the printing indicates, Johnson several times 1533, although it expresses itself carefully, because it does not know exactly, when this year lies. It uses dear of terms like "Tudor time", king Heinrich VIIITH from England etc.. About at that time must have been written Beda and Chaucer, the church fathers and the New Testament. It knows also the monasteries, where such work was made: Monte Cassino and Bobbio, Fulda, pc. Irenaeus of Lyon and above all pc. Dénis and pc. Germains of Paris, even knows some the participants (the notorious abbott Tritheim belonged naturally to it), and does not save not with admiration for this achievement, whereby he does not verhehlt however that he feels lies of this order of magnitude unworthily for our culture, exactly the same as he the continuation of these lies by today's scholars sharply condemned (P. 91-92).

If Johnson's conclusions are correct -- and I do not see a possibility of disproving it -- it doesn't mean that our entire literature and writing culture began in 1460 (if the backcomputed date is correct, says Johnson) with the printing press. But our precious Erstdrucke carries frequently no data or is arbitrarily dated, usually clearly predated. We do not know how old they are.
Many handwritten manuscripts -- particularly the Bible texts -- were made late, after the artworks were made. The work was by no means final around 1570, but kept running the whole time, in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries with unreduced strength. In this connection falls also Tischendorfs Name, which I described straight as a manufacturer of the Codex Sinaiticus (2001, chapter VIII).
Against conclusion of the book Johnson discusses the problem of the Jews, which must have already existed. One of the authors, who wrote the Pauline letters, must have been even Jew, as also a Jewish Old Testament must have already been present, if also not absolutely in the shape, which has it today. But much rather as 1500 the just as little can have been. The Masoreten lived its holy writing and the Talmud in the Renaissance, is just as hasty and monstroes manufactured, probably at the same time as the first Christian books. The parallels in the production process, which state Johnson, are convincingly also for that, which does not have view of this literature kind.
As Eugen Gabowitsch straight in the discussion communicated to me, Morosow and Fomenko, the most important Russian chronology critics, knew the writings of Edwin Johnson and partly developed upon them. Therefore the question arises, why isn't this important work in the English language world read any longer?
I would suppose because history is at its most interesting when also at its most credible...

Antiqua Mater is really good though, as I recall, so don't take this as a slight against the other book.

Did you have any opinion about it?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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I still need to read it in full; but that summary has some interesting points
This is Klaus Schilling's summary in English of Arthur Drews' article "Die Leugnung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart", on the history of the denial of the historicity of Jesus, at http://www.radikalkritik.de/leugnung.htm at Radikal Kritik. Edited, formatted, and uploaded with Schilling's permission by Michael Hoffman.
eg.
Tacitus, if authentic at all, which may be seriously doubted, may easily refer to messianic Jews at Nero's Rome, conflated with Christians under Trajan's time.
as is
The originator of Gnosticism may be Simon Magos of Samaria, who emerged under the rule of Claudius and attracted many followers with exorcisms, magic, prophesies, and mystic, salvific ceremonies. This gave rise to Christianity and a doctrine about heaven, earth, and hell, only to be understood pneumatically. A redeemer is the epiphany of the good (Chrestos) God to spread the doctrine and teach the mysteries.

Thus they have been called Chrestoi, which got corrupted into Chrestiani, then Christiani, by the Romans. They invented the symbolic story about the Christ's death under Pilatus. They pirated the myth of Dionysos Eleutherios, a self-sacrificing Godman for the salvific sake of humanity. Paul of the letters is to be seen barely as a historical person, but rather as a possibly idealized Marcionite. Marcion is the reformer of Gnostic doctrine which was [probably] invented by Simon Magos.
and this -
The letter of Galatians is the Marcionite refutation of the anti-Marcionite Acts of the Apostles. The twelve apostles are an utterly figmentary legend.
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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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It's worth mentioning that Antiqua Mater features prominently in Detering's "journey of discovery" in which he comes to agreement with Dutch radical criticism, according to his own account.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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It's interesting; we don't here much about "Radicalism" in England
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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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The Christian church developed in the benediktinischen monasteries of France (Paris and Lyon) around 1500, which became catholic church fathers by incompetent monks written, which is New Testament as consequence of it developed. There are no older texts, and contents betray the time: Beginning of the printing.
This sounds like a version of the idea of Jean Hardouin, that most classical and early Christian literature were forgeries? (The old Catholic Encyclopedia article is here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07135c.htm )

This sort of thing arises because people have never thought about why any text is, or is not, genuine. Selective debunking is the classic mistake of the 19th century critics, and always produced editions that were arbitary and unsound.
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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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Roger Pearse wrote: Selective debunking is the classic mistake of the 19th century critics, and always produced editions that were arbitary and unsound.
"Selective debunking" of what? Produces what sort of editions?
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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

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MrMacSon wrote:
Roger Pearse wrote: Selective debunking is the classic mistake of the 19th century critics, and always produced editions that were arbitary and unsound.
"Selective debunking" of what? Produces what sort of editions?
I won't try and speak for Roger, but some scholars of the 19th century were excessively sure they could identify interpolations and omissions based on their subjective selection criteria. Criticism by style is not very secure as modern attempts at stylometric analysis of the Pauline letters have demonstrated. "Style" sometimes becomes a code word for the scholar's "Theological Interpretation."

Personally when I read a book, no matter by whom, I try to "read around" the critic's theological interpretation by removing the color commentary (words like "great", "ingenious", "persuasive", etc.) to cook things down to basic working facts. Then I look the facts up and make my own evaluations.

But who doesn't? :whistling:

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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

Post by outhouse »

DCHindley wrote:Criticism by style is not very secure as modern attempts at stylometric analysis of the Pauline letters have demonstrated. "Style" sometimes becomes a code word for the scholar's "Theological Interpretation."


Agreed.


Not only that it ignores the epistles were a community effort, that these were not just one mans writings. How much input did Tim have and the others on any given Epistle? This cannot be answered.

How much was just Pauls hand alone? we don't know.
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Re: Antiqua Mater: A Study of Christian Origins. E Johnson

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Roger Pearse wrote:
The Christian church developed in the benediktinischen monasteries of France (Paris and Lyon) around 1500, which became catholic church fathers by incompetent monks written, which is New Testament as consequence of it developed. There are no older texts, and contents betray the time: Beginning of the printing.
This sounds like a version of the idea of Jean Hardouin, that most classical and early Christian literature were forgeries? (The old Catholic Encyclopedia article is here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07135c.htm )

This sort of thing arises because people have never thought about why any text is, or is not, genuine. Selective debunking is the classic mistake of the 19th century critics, and always produced editions that were arbitary and unsound.
One must also be mindful of the intellectual environment of the time in which Jean Hardouin (1646 – 1729) wrote. Perhaps one of the greatest influences of this epoch was the definitive exposure of the church organisation's "Pseudo-Isidorian" forgery mill of the 9th century by David_Blondel (1591 – 1655). Hardouin's theories may well have been strongly or substantially influenced by this recent (with respect to Hardouin) and most definitive exposure of mass [Church] forgery.

He seems to have referred to a group of forgers which he called 'the impious crew', 'maudite cabale'.

From Bossuet to Newman, Owen Chadwick, Second Edition, Cambridge, 1987 (1957):
  • In a work of 1693 he [Hardouin) hinted; in a work of 1709 he affirmed; in posthumous works of 1729 and 1733 he shouted—a bewildering but simple thesis. Apart from the scriptures—that is the Latin scriptures—and six classical authors, all the writers of antiquity, profane or ecclesiastical, were forged by a group of writers in the thirteenth or fourteenth centuries. This group of forgers he never defined or discussed, but always referred to them generically as 'the impious crew', 'maudite cabale'.

LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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