The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Duvduv
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Re: The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Post by Duvduv »

You and I both know of the tendency to incorporate various sources and ideas for Christianity.
dewitness
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Re: The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Post by dewitness »

Duvduv wrote:You and I both know of the tendency to incorporate various sources and ideas for Christianity.
Are you claiming that it was a Christian who argued that no well known writer mentioned Jesus and Paul?
dewitness
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Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 am

Re: The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Post by dewitness »

There is a large amount of evidence from antiquity that the Pauline Corpus and Gospel was a late invention.

If there was one author in the Canon who was expected to know of and use the Pauline Corpus it would have been the author of Acts.

The author of Acts wrote about Jesus and Peter, two of the supposed main characters in the Gospels, and a character called Saul/Paul..

The author mentioned Jesus only about 56 times, Peter about 70 times and Saul/Paul about 145 times but mentioned Nothing of the Pauline Corpus.

However, the author of Acts showed that his Saul/Paul character did know the Jesus story and that he knew the Jesus story AFTER he consulted with disciples in Damascus.

Acts 9
Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus, 20 and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." 21 All those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, "Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this name..
Now, examine Acts 13--Saul/Paul will preached about Jesus, the Son of God who was crucified and raised from the dead. The same as Peter in Acts 2.

Acts 13
..16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said , "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen : 17 "The God of this people Israel................ raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, 'I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER MY HEART, who will do all My will.' 23 "From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

24 after John had proclaimed before His coming a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

25 "And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, 'What do you suppose that I am ? I am not He. But behold, one is coming after me the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'

26 "Brethren , sons of Abraham's family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. 27 "For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.

28 "And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. 29 "When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. 30 "But God raised Him from the dead ; 31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people........
In the Canon, Saul/Paul knew the story of Jesus which was known and circulated by the supposed disciples of Jesus when Saul/Paul was a persecutor.

The teaching in the Pauline Corpus that there would be NO remission of Sins without the resurrection was a late invention and was unknown to the author of Acts.

1 Corinthians 15:17 NAS
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless ; you are still in your sins.
dewitness
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Re: The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Post by dewitness »

It is most laughable when some who use the NT claim Paul did not know the story of Jesus.

In the very NT, it is claimed Paul consulted with the disciples in Damascus and then immediately preached Christ.

And not only does Paul know the Jesus story, it is claimed he met the characters in the story.

The author of Acts and the supposed Paul himself claimed he met the Apostles Peter and James --characters that never did exist as described.

The Pauline Corpus is actually based on fiction characters in the Gospels---Jesus and the Apostles.

But it is far worse than previously thought.

The Pauline Corpus is fundamentally based on the LATER fiction Gospels--Not the early gMark.

In 1 Corinthians, the Pauline writer fabricated a monstrous fable claiming that he received information from the resurrected Jesus.

It will be seen that the Pauline author merely ADDED words to the mouth of the fiction character called Jesus in gMark.

Sinaiticus gMark
22 And as they ate, having taken bread and blessed, he broke and gave to them and said: Take: this is my body.

23 And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave to them; and they all drank of it.

24 And he said to them: This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.


We can see exactly what the Pauline author ADDED to the fiction story of the Last Supper. The Markan Jesus did NOT say at all that the there should be a ritual of the Last Supper in remembrance of the crucified Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11.
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread ; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood[ ; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."


The Pauline writer of Corinthians improved on the words of the fiction story character in the Last Supper.

The Pauline Improved version of the Last Supper matches or surpasses the Improvement in gLuke---Paul knew gLuke.

Luke 22
19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood..


The Pauline Corpus and Gospel was a Late invention.

Next, we will see that the Pauline writer of Galatians IMPROVED on the fiction stories in Acts.

The Pauline writers NOT only improved on the fiction in the Gospels and Acts but participated in the very fictitious events.
dewitness
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Re: The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Post by dewitness »

The argument for Pauline writings before c 62 CE is extremely weak. There is simply no corroboration in the Canon.

However, there is an abundance of evidence from antiquity that the Entire Pauline Corpus was fabricated after the Jesus story was known and that the Pauline authors manufactured improvements to the stories of Jesus, the Son of God.

It has already been shown that statements about the Last Supper in 1 Corinthians is an improvement of gMark's version.

Essentially, The Epistles to the Corinthians were composed AFTER gMark.

Now, examine Galatians. We will see that the Pauline author will improve on Acts of the Apostles.

In Acts, it is claimed that Saul/Paul CONSULTED with disciples of Damascus and then immediately preached Christ crucified to the JEWS.

It is EXTREMELY significant to remember that in Acts that Saul/Paul first preached Christ crucified to JEWS---- not Gentiles.

Acts of the Apostles 9
....... Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus, 20 and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." 21 All those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, "Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this name, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests ?" 22 But Saul kept increasing in strength and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ...
The author of Acts is clear. Saul/Paul was with the disciples for several days and then he IMMEDIATELY preached in the Synagogues and confounded the JEWS--Not Gentiles.

Now, read Galatians . The Pauline author changed and IMPROVED the story in Acts and claimed he was called to preach to the GENTILES and the UNCIRCUMCISION.

Galatians 1 NAS
15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus. 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2 NAS
7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles..
The Pauline writer IMPROVED the post-resurrection Commission to his disciples in the Later Gospels and Acts.

The Eleven disciples themselves, NOT Paul, was Commissioned to preach the Gospel to the WHOLE World by Jesus after he Rose from the dead.

Mark 16 NAS
Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved ; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
The Pauline author of Galatians NOT only knew the fiction story of the Commission of the resurrected Jesus but also IMPROVED the story and claimed that it was HE--Not the disciples, who was commissioned to preach to the GENTILES by the fiction character after he was raised from the dead.

The Resurrected Jesus gave no such authority to Paul in the Canonised Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

The Epistle to the Galatian was composed AFTER the Jesus story was known.
Duvduv
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Re: The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Post by Duvduv »

I am simply arguing that Christians along the way ADOPTED pre-existing philosophical writings and made a few changes to them as they were rather than engage in wholesale rewriting or reinventing the wheel. I am claiming where you see a tract referencing "Christians" with no mention of the religion, doctrines, etc., it is quite likely the original did not refer to Christians at all, but was sufficiently acceptable to be considered a philosophical text of value with a few changes.
dewitness wrote:
Duvduv wrote:You and I both know of the tendency to incorporate various sources and ideas for Christianity.
Are you claiming that it was a Christian who argued that no well known writer mentioned Jesus and Paul?
dewitness
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 am

Re: The Pauline Gospel was a Late Invention

Post by dewitness »

Duvduv wrote:I am simply arguing that Christians along the way ADOPTED pre-existing philosophical writings and made a few changes to them as they were rather than engage in wholesale rewriting or reinventing the wheel. I am claiming where you see a tract referencing "Christians" with no mention of the religion, doctrines, etc., it is quite likely the original did not refer to Christians at all, but was sufficiently acceptable to be considered a philosophical text of value with a few changes.
You have no evidence that all Christians adopted pre-existing philosophical writings and made changes to them. You are really speculating--not arguing--because you fail to provide the evidence to support your argument.
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