The Best Case for Jesus

[Peter Kirby]

Peter Kirby thinking that he knows what he is writing about stated:
Still, despite the circumvented ban, I'm granting a pardon. For now anyhow.

Thanks, Proudfootz. you are as generous as you are erudite. I do require a pardon, for having committed some sort of crime, and perhaps I will learn the nature of my crime in the next life. I did not read Kirby's apology to Leucius Charinus. I am waiting for it. In my opinion, it is Kirby, not me, who needs the pardon. I expelled no one, unjustly. Emperor Proudfootz, feel free to expel me, any time. I neither seek, nor beseech an audience with you or the pope. A bit of advice: reflect just a tiny bit, prior to adopting as truth, input from SH.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... otic+twins

Never mind. You're barking mad, and I will ban you.

[maryhelena]

Cyrene was the last of the outposts of the Jewish Zealots and refugees to be subdued in A.D. 73 or thereabouts. At that time, Vespasian was firmly in power.

Probably more interesting about Cyrene is that Ismael, the son of Fabi, was beheaded there early in the revolt- probably around A.D. 66-68. Ismael had resigned the High Priest position in A.D. 61 in order to be a part of Poppea's (and presumably Nero's) court in Rome. A very confounding move that suggests ulterior motives.


When the Jewish revolt began, what was Ismael, a Jewish aristocrat/priest if there ever was one, doing in Cyrene?

He failed in his mission, was captured, and beheaded by the Sicarii/Zealots there.

Interesting......thanks.

High Priest Ishmael retained in Rome.

With the permission of Festus, they sent ten of their leading men to Nero, with Ismael the high priest and Helcias, the keeper of the sacred treasury. 195 When Nero heard what they had to say, he forgave what they had already done, and also allowed them to let stand the wall they had built. This was granted to gratify Poppea, Nero's wife, who was a religious woman and had requested him for these favours and told the ten envoys to go on home, while she kept Helcias and Ismael with herself as hostages. 196 When the king heard this news, he gave the high priesthood to Joseph, surnamed Cabi, son of Simon the former high priest.

Ant: book 20

At the Jewish/Roman War

Among them were ................ three of high priestly stock, sons of the Ishmael who was beheaded in Cyrene

War: book 6 ch.2

He was a descendant of John Hyrcanus Maccabee Prince of Judea

Ishmael ben Fabus

A Jewish high priest, with Hasmonean connections*, beheaded in a foreign land. Cyrene. Interesting indeed! And what other Jewish High priest was beheaded in a foreign land? Antigonus. The last Hasmonean King and High Priest of the Jews, beheaded in Antioch in 37 b.c.e., after being hung up alive on a cross and scourged.

Well well, that does place a very different interpretation on the gospel Simon from Cyrene story. Context matters. History mattered to the gospel storytellers.

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* can't find a link to support this from the Wikipedia page.

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added later

ISHMAEL BEN PHABI (FIABI) II.:

High priest under Agrippa II.; not to be identified (as by Grätz and Schürer) with the high priest of the same name who was appointed by Valerius Gratus and who officiated during 15-16 of the common era. Ishmael was a worthy successor of the high priest Phinehas. He was appointed to the office by Agrippa in the year 59, and enjoyed the sympathy of the people. He was very rich; his mother made him, for the Day of Atonement, a priestly robe which cost 100 minæ. Ishmael at first followed the Sadducean method of burning the sacrificial red heifer, but finally authorized the procedure according to the Pharisaic teaching. Being one of the foremost ten citizens of Jerusalem sent on an embassy to Emperor Nero, he was detained by the empress at Rome as a hostage. He was beheaded in Cyrene after the destruction of Jerusalem, and is glorified by the Mishnah teachers (Parah iii. 5; Soṭah ix. 15; Pes. 57a; Yoma 35b).

Bibliography:
Josephus, Ant. xx. 8. §§ 8, 11;
idem, B. J. vi. 2; § 2;
Schürer, Gesch. ii. 219;
Ad. Büchler, Das Synedrion in Jerusalem, pp. 67, 96, Vienna, 1902.


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... i-fiabi-ii

[Charles Wilson]

Acts 2: (RSV):

[2] And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[5] Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
[6] And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
[7] And they were amazed and wondered, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
[8] And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
[9] Par'thians and Medes and E'lamites and residents of Mesopota'mia, Judea and Cappado'cia, Pontus and Asia,
[10] Phryg'ia and Pamphyl'ia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyre'ne, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
[11] Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."

It is another piece of the puzzle. Here is the Almighty Power of God and it extends to..."the parts of Libya belonging to Cyre'ne..."? That's it?!?? The All-Powerful God extends his Power only as far as the Burger King at Fifth Street in Cyrene? I don't think so. This is a threat (from Domitian, dba the "Holy Spirit"...) that the POLITICAL Power of Rome runs the Shop around here, all the way to Cyrene. This is NOT Christian Power Unleashed. It is raw Roman Power. It explains the Un-Christian verses in Acts 6: 1 - 2 (RSV):

[1] Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists murmured against the Hebrews because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution.
[2] And the twelve summoned the body of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables..."

This is straight up choosing sides and the "Hebrews" are on the wrong side. The "HELLENISTS" protest that their widows were neglected in the daily distribution of food, such control being a Job for a Caesar. In other words, the Greek men are being killed by the Jews. The Legions are telling everyone that their Job is NOT to wait on tables. Their Job is to kick ass and take names.

Over and over, the Symbolism comes back to the same ideas: The Hasmoneans, the Priesthood, the Rulers and High Priests such as Jannaeus, Hyrcanus and - Yes, very much - Antigonus. Apply Apologetix at your own risk. You will invariably end up at the end of a Dead End Street.

CW

[outhouse]

A little dramatic don't you think?


I you mean you have a hard time understanding there was a division between the oppressed cultural Jews?


And Hellenistic who worked hand in hand with the Roman oppressors who were perverting Judaism to their own needs?

[maryhelena]

Over and over, the Symbolism comes back to the same ideas: The Hasmoneans, the Priesthood, the Rulers and High Priests such as Jannaeus, Hyrcanus and - Yes, very much - Antigonus. Apply Apologetix at your own risk. You will invariably end up at the end of a Dead End Street.

CW

Yep - but history can be such a dirty game that who wants to let it spoil the good ol' gospel story?

[outhouse]

Over and over, the Symbolism comes back to the same ideas: The Hasmoneans, the Priesthood, the Rulers and High Priests such as Jannaeus, Hyrcanus and - Yes, very much - Antigonus. Apply Apologetix at your own risk. You will invariably end up at the end of a Dead End Street.

CW

Yep - but history can be such a dirty game that who wants to let it spoil the good ol' gospel story?

What is spoiled?

The historical Jesus does not reflect much of the biblical jesus

[maryhelena]

Over and over, the Symbolism comes back to the same ideas: The Hasmoneans, the Priesthood, the Rulers and High Priests such as Jannaeus, Hyrcanus and - Yes, very much - Antigonus. Apply Apologetix at your own risk. You will invariably end up at the end of a Dead End Street.

CW

Yep - but history can be such a dirty game that who wants to let it spoil the good ol' gospel story?

What is spoiled?

The historical Jesus does not reflect much of the biblical jesus

The historical Jesus? There is no historical record of such a figure. All that is there is either interpretation or hearsay.

[outhouse]

The historical Jesus? There is no historical record of such a figure. All that is there is either interpretation or hearsay.

Like it or not. He has historicity.

There is a study by people not like you, that try to separate the historical character from the biblical one.

No one really cares about spoiling the biblical Jesus, we all understand the layered Hellenistic mythology in its text.

[maryhelena]

The historical Jesus? There is no historical record of such a figure. All that is there is either interpretation or hearsay.

Like it or not. He has historicity.

In your imagination....

[outhouse]

In your imagination....

Sorry, your the one holding the fringe occult like, unsubstantiated position with no hypothesis that stands up to the evidence we are left with. One that goes against ALL education and knowledge, similar to creationist defending the supernatural.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

There is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically


Almost all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed



Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted



According to New Testament scholar James Dunn, nearly all modern scholars consider the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion to be historically certain.[61] He states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical 'facts' they are obvious starting points for an attempt to clarify the what and why of Jesus' mission