What's a Cumulative Case?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3439
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by DCHindley »

neilgodfrey wrote:The first time I heard the expression of a "cumulative case" or argument of cumulative weight being used was in the writings of Maurice Casey and his student James Crossley.

Something about it reminds me of the expression "circumstantial argument" or case.

What is the validity of an argument that consists of many points, each one very light-weight in itself, being piled together to affirm that the total is significantly weighty?

What is the rationale for an argument of "cumulative weight"?
Here is what S F Barker (who?) says about the matter in Induction and Hypotheses (1957):
There are two rather different ways in which induction might work. On the one hand, it may be said that induction proceeds [49] simply through the enumeration of instances — this would be induction by simple enumeration. According to such a formulation of the inductive principle, one generalization would be better supported than another just in case more instances in favor of the former (and of course none that contradicts it) had been observed. For example, if we have observed fifteen Irishmen to be redheaded (and have not observed any not to be) and if we have observed seventeen Irishmen to be irascible (and not observed any not to be so), then this inductive principle would enjoin us to regard the generalization that all Irishmen are irascible as more probable than the generalization that all are redheaded. Argument by simple enumeration, according to its proponents, is the fundamental mode of nondemonstrative inference; if we wish to justify belief in any empirical statement not verified by direct observation, then we must employ induction by simple enumeration. According to this view, there is no other way of constructing a cogent nondemonstrative argument, no other way of confirming empirical hypotheses.

On the other hand, it may be held that induction proceeds solely by elimination of rival generalizations. Some philosophers argue that the mere accumulation of instances cannot add any support to a generalization; only if there is reason for believing that these additional instances are different from one another in certain respects can they serve to increase the degree of rational credibility that attaches to the generalization. Indeed, common sense does suggest to us that, in order to establish the generalization that all swans are white, it does not suffice merely to observe that a large number of otherwise very similar swans are white; one ought rather to observe swans at different times of year, in different geographical regions, of different sexes, of different ages, and so on. One ought to observe swans which differ in as many respects as possible, for in this way one can hope to minimize the likelihood that it is some other characteristic [50] possessed by the observed swans which (rather than the mere fact that they are swans) is the sufficient condition of whiteness. According to the proponent of induction by elimination, one should seek a variety of instances, and the differences among the instances are important because they serve to eliminate rival generalizations, only through the elimination of which can the generalization in question be established. Induction is viewed as a struggle in which the less unfit survive: a given generalization becomes better confirmed just insofar as its rivals are destroyed by being contradicted by the evidence. The proponent of eliminative induction would hold that, if all the evidence available were that fifteen Irishmen are irascible and seventeen redheaded, we could not legitimately conclude that either generalization is any more probable than the other. Lacking information about differences among the observed instances, this evidence, if it were all the available evidence, would provide very little support for either generalization, since it eliminates scarcely any rival generalizations at all.
As Patchy the Pirate from the Sponge Bob Squarepants cartoon says when he opens a treasure chest and sees a miner with an old acetylene lamp on his helmet looking up at him with an expression of rapture: "I don't know what it means either ..."

DCH
steve43
Posts: 373
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:36 pm

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by steve43 »

What we are talking about is a 1900 year old world-wide conspiracy. This conspiracy is made up of sophisticated and malevolent people throughout the centuries whose goal is to dupe everyone into believing in a fictitious character "Jesus." The ultimate purpose? Spiritual and intellectual enslavement of the entire world in an anti-woman and male-dominated society. The weapons? Specious and thread-bare concepts of "love" and "forgiveness", a curiously dark pagan ceremony called "Communion", along with falsified ancient documents.

The fact that there are a dozen "independent" pieces of "evidence" suggesting that "Jesus" existed just shows you how good they are.
In fact, the greatest piece of evidence that there IS a conspiracy is that 99.9% of people- sheep that they are- DO NOT BELIEVE that there is one.

The most insidious and nefarious conspiracies are NEVER FOUND OUT.

Note that "Communion", "Cumulative", "Christianity", and "Conspiracy" start with the same letter.

Coincidence?

I think not.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to cienfuegos,
I don't see where you have proposed different probabilities. How do these points change the numbers in the Bayesian calculations? A lot of people have criticized the Rank-Raglan prior, including me at first, but I think ultimately Carrier made his case on that(and a lot of critics just don't understand it).
If the input data is greatly flawed, which I think it is many many times (and wrote about it), Bayes theorems or not, the output will be wrong: garbage in, garbage out. About Carrier's math in OHJ:
http://historical-jesus.info/92.html
I think your methodology is seriously flawed from the starting gate.
And what would be flawed in my methodology?

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by Bernard Muller »

Note that "Communion", "Cumulative", "Christianity", and "Conspiracy" start with the same letter.
Gee, that's a massive piece of evidence here :D :thumbup:

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
User avatar
cienfuegos
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:23 pm

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by cienfuegos »

Bernard Muller wrote:to cienfuegos,
I don't see where you have proposed different probabilities. How do these points change the numbers in the Bayesian calculations? A lot of people have criticized the Rank-Raglan prior, including me at first, but I think ultimately Carrier made his case on that(and a lot of critics just don't understand it).
If the input data is greatly flawed, which I think it is many many times (and wrote about it), Bayes theorems or not, the output will be wrong: garbage in, garbage out. About Carrier's math in OHJ:
http://historical-jesus.info/92.html
Feel free to run your own numbers and post them. The link you provide only has cherry picked quotations and either your observation or assertion of Carrier's wrongheadedness. There's no actual argument presented; It isn't "proof" of anything.
bernard wrote:
cienfuegos wrote:I think your methodology is seriously flawed from the starting gate.
And what would be flawed in my methodology?

Cordially, Bernard
Asked and answered. For starters, you explicitly ask for special license in your methodology, not thinking like a traditional historian, but taking a forensics approach, which I already pointed out was flawed (forensics presupposes something occurred, so your methodology is designed to discover how what you presuppose happened happened, thus circular).
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to cienfuegos,
Asked and answered. For starters, you explicitly ask for special license in your methodology, not thinking like a traditional historian, but taking a forensics approach, which I already pointed out was flawed (forensics presupposes something occurred, so your methodology is designed to discover how what you presuppose happened happened, thus circular).
Do police detectives investigating a crime with no obvious solution have to be traditional historians?
Are these investigators trained as traditional historians?
Rather, trained to detect and analyse evidence, interrogate witnesses (even the ones which are inaccurate, false, dissimulated &/or hostile), look at all angles? And then make a reconstruction, define the motives, find the suspect(s) and get more evidence against him/them? All of that in order to build a solid case against him/them.
I cannot understand your insistence about being a traditional historian in order to investigate the beginning of Christianity?
Is your approach the one of a traditional historian?

Do you think Carrier conducted himself as a traditional historian when he wrote his book OHJ?
Actually Carrier turned mythicist fairly abruptly and then years later, explained why.
So he can be accused of his methodology is designed to discover how what he presuppose happened happened, thus circular.
Are you sure your methodology is not the same?

What's wrong about forensic? definition: "Forensic science is the scientific method of gathering and examining information about the past which is then used in a court of law".

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by outhouse »

cienfuegos wrote:Is he logically flawed in such a way that it changes the output? Perhaps so.


Well that is my point here. It is subjective.


His lack of biblical education, to me is a serious flaw for one to input that ignorance into a math equation.

I would bet it is easy to use that same methodology on a historical character not in dispute, and weasel out a mythical one afterwards.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Bernard Muller wrote: Do police detectives investigating a crime with no obvious solution have to be traditional historians? . . . . . . . .

What's wrong about forensic? definition: "Forensic science is the scientific method of gathering and examining information about the past which is then used in a court of law".
Biblical Historians Make Detectives Look Silly
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
cienfuegos
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:23 pm

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by cienfuegos »

outhouse wrote:
cienfuegos wrote:Is he logically flawed in such a way that it changes the output? Perhaps so.


Well that is my point here. It is subjective.


His lack of biblical education, to me is a serious flaw for one to input that ignorance into a math equation.

I would bet it is easy to use that same methodology on a historical character not in dispute, and weasel out a mythical one afterwards.
It is up to you to demonstrate where he goes wrong, not just assert that he did. Carrier's calculations aren't some magic number (er, um, the answer to the question of life is 42). He isn't claiming to have uncovered the truth. This "garbage in-garbage out" critique completely the misses the point, which is that you or I or anyone can question the garbage that is put in. You can argue that any one of his probabilities should be adjusted. You are free to point out what he missed. That is the point of using the Bayesian Probability theorem in the way that Carrier has used it.

I think there are reasonable criticisms of Carrier's point of view, but I am not seeing them here. Mostly I see misunderstanding of Bayesian probabilities. Personally, I believe it ought to be unnecessary to attach numerical probabilities to historical analysis. I do see here though that what Carrier has done lays it all out for anyone to pick apart. So pick it apart. Carrier's methodology will never be wide-spread for the simple fact that historians won't understand the numbers.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2850
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: What's a Cumulative Case?

Post by andrewcriddle »

I think there may be an issue of the limits of what cumulative weak evidence can prove.

One could in theory establish by weak cumulative evidence that there is an excess rate of craft going missing in the Bermuda triangle, (in reality I believe this claim to be empirically false), but this would not establish that aliens are operating in this area.

Andrew Criddle
Post Reply