possible references to docetic-type beliefs

Post by **Peter Kirby** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:05 pm

I have attempted a small compilation of references that could refer to some kind of "docetism" or related "error" ...

(A) Possible Positive Expressions of Docetism and Similar Beliefs

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 [?]
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Romans 8:3-4; 8:9-11 [?]
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ... You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Philippians 2:5-8 [?]
Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross.

Gospel of Mark 1:9-10, 15:34 [ca. 70-140? suggested as a possibility by the parallels in more explicit gospels]
In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove on him. ... At three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Gospel of Mark 1:11 [ca. 70-140? codex Bezae (D), supported by Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria, cf. Psalm 2:7]
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, "You are my son. I today have begotten you."

Gospel of Mark 3:31-35 [?]
And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Gospel of Mark 6:48-50 [?]
And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out, for they all saw him and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

Gospel of Thomas 19 [?]
Jesus says: "Blessed is the man who existed before he came into being!"

Gospel of Thomas 28 [?]
Jesus said: I stood in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in the flesh.

Gospel of the Ebionites [ca. 70-160?] (quoted by Epiphanius, Panarion 30.13.2-3, cf. more references below)
In the Gospel that is in general use among them which is called "according to Matthew", which however is not whole and complete but forged and mutilated - they call it the Hebrews Gospel-it is reported: There appeared a certain man named Jesus of about thirty years of age, who chose us. And when he came to Capernaum, he entered into the house of Simon whose surname is Peter, and opened his mouth and said: "As I passed the Lake of Tiberias, I chose John and James the sons of Zebedee, and Simon and Andrew and Thaddeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the Iscariot, and you, Matthew, I called as you sat at the receipt of custom, and you followed me. You, therefore, I will to be twelve apostles for a testimony unto Israel."

Evangelion [ca. 70-160?] (being the Gospel used by Marcion, cf. Luke 3:1, 4:31-32, 4:28-30)
In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Jesus descended into Capernaum, a city in Galilee, and was teaching on the Sabbath days; And they were astonished at his doctrine, for his word was in authority. ... And they were all filled with wrath in the synagogue, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way.

Evangelion [ca. 70-160?] (being the Gospel used by Marcion, cf. Luke 3:22, Luke 23:43, 23:46)
And the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove ... And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." ... Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Gospel of Christ [ca. 70-160? conjectural, being the Gospel composed by Cerinthus? cf. John 1:32, John 19:34; cf. Mart. Poly. 16:1, 19:1)
And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him." ... Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came forth a dove and a great quantity of blood.

Gospel of Christ [ca. 70-160? conjectural, being the Gospel composed by Cerinthus? cf. John 12:30-33]
Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Gospel of Peter 10; 19 [ca. 70-160?] (cf. Serapion of Antioch in Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 6.12.6)
And they brought two malefactors and crucified the Lord in the midst between them. But he held his peace, as if he felt no pain. ... And the Lord screamed out, saying: 'My power, O power, you have forsaken me.' And having said this, he was taken up.

Gospel of Peter 9:36-10:40 [?] [with reference to the cross, may have originally formed part of the story of the crucifixion]
And they saw the heavens open up and two men coming down from there having much light, ... and the two supporting the one, and a cross following them, and the head of the two reaching until heaven, but that of the one being led out by the hand by them surpassing the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens saying: Have you preached to those who are sleeping? And obedience was heard from the cross: Yes.

Gospel of Mark 16:3 in Codex Bobbiensis (itk) [?] [may have originally replaced Mark 15:33 or 15:37]
But suddenly at the third hour of the day there came darkness through the entire orb of the earth, and angels descended from heaven, and, [as he was] rising in the brightness of the living God, at once they ascended with him, and immediately there was light. Then the women went to the tomb.

Second Apocalypse of James [ca. 120-180?]
"If I have come into existence, who then am I? For I did <not> come as I am, nor would I have appeared as I am. For I used to exist for a brief period of time [...]."

Trimorphic Protennoia [ca. 120-180?]
The Third time I revealed myself to them in their tents as Word, and I revealed myself in the likeness of their shape. And I wore everyone's garment, and I hid myself within them, and they did not know the one who empowers me. For I dwell within all the Sovereignties and Powers, and within the angels, and in every movement that exists in all matter. And I hid myself within them until I revealed myself to my brethren. And none of them (the Powers) knew me, although it is I who work in them. Rather, they thought that the All was created by them, since they are ignorant, not knowing their root, the place in which they grew. I am the Light that illumines the All. I am the Light that rejoices in my brethren, for I came down to the world of mortals on account of the Spirit that remains in that which descended (and) came forth from the innocent Sophia. ...
... I was dwelling in them in the form of each one. The Archons thought that I was their Christ. Indeed, I dwell in everyone. Indeed, within those in whom I revealed myself as Light, I eluded the Archons. I am their beloved, for in that place I clothed myself as the son of the Archgenitor, and I was like him until the end of his decree, which is the ignorance of Chaos. And among the angels I revealed myself in their likeness, and among the Powers, as if I were one of them; but among the Sons of Man, as if I were a Son of Man, even though I am Father of everyone. ...
... As for me, I put on Jesus. I bore him from the cursed wood, and established him in the dwelling places of his Father. And those who watch over their dwelling places did not recognize me. For I, I am unrestrainable, together with my seed; and my seed, which is mine, I shall place into the holy Light within an incomprehensible Silence. Amen.

Gospel of Judas, Codex Tchacos pg. 33, lines 6-9 and 18-21 [ca. 130-170?]
When he appeared on earth, he performed miracles and great wonders for the salvation of humanity. ... But often he does not appear to his disciples (as himself), but you find him among them as a [child, or, phantom].

[Regarding the translation difficulty: "The meaning of NSROT is unclear. It may be a form of B sROT 'child,' a word that is mostly attested as a plural form, but sROT (once in B) and sRWT (once in Old Coptic) do also occur (cf. Crum 631 a-b). Alternatively, it may be a form of B SORTQ or SORT, 'apparition, phantom,' or even of S WORT 'veil' (Crum 588 b). But it may also be a hitherto unknown word; cf. the Etude dialectale." (The Gospel of Judas, ed. Kasser and Wurst, p. 185, with my barbaric transliteration)]

Tatian's Syriac Diatessaron [?] [according to T. Baarda, with reference to Aphrahat, Ephraem, etc. - ca. 140-180?]
... they stood up and they led him out from the town and brought him by the side of the hill, [on which their town was built,] in order to cast him down. [When] they cast him down from the height into the depth, he did not fall and was not harmed. Through their midst he past and he flew [in the air?], and he descended [from above] to Kapharnaum.

Gospel of Truth [?] [ca. 140-180?]
For this reason Jesus appeared. He took that book as his own. He was nailed to a cross. He affixed the edict of the Father to the cross. Oh, such great teaching! He abases himself even unto death, though he is clothed in eternal life. Having divested himself of these perishable rags, he clothed himself in incorruptibility, which no one could possibly take from him.

The Interpretation of Knowledge [ca. 150-200?]
And he was crucified and he died - not his own death, for he did not at all deserve to die because of the church of mortals. And he was nailed so that they might keep him in the Church. He answered her with humiliations, since in this way he had borne the suffering which he had suffered. For Jesus is for us a likeness on account of ... (14 lines missing)

Acts of Peter, 20 [ca. 150-200?]
The Lord in his mercy was moved to show himself in another shape and to be seen in the form of a man, concerning which neither the Jews nor we were able worthily to be enlightened. For every one of us according as he could contain the sight, saw, as he was able. ... he ate and drank for our sakes, himself being neither hungry nor thirsty ... this God who is great and small, fair and foul, young and old, seen in time and unto eternity invisible; whom the hand of man hath not held, yet is he held by his servants; whom no flesh hath seen, yet now seeth; who is the word proclaimed by the prophets and now appearing (so Gk.: Lat. not heard of but now known); not subject to suffering, but having now made trial of suffering for our sake (or like unto us); never chastised, yet now chastised; who was before the world and hath been comprehended in time; the great beginning of all principality, yet delivered over unto princes; beautiful, but among us lowly; seen of all yet foreseeing all (MS. foul of view, yet foreseeing).

Acts of Peter, 21 [ca. 150-200]
Yet now, Lord, let thy sweet and holy name succour these persons; do thou touch their eyes; for thou art able -that these may see with their eyes. And when all had prayed, the hall wherein they were shone as when it lighteneth, even with such a light as cometh in the clouds, yet not such a light as that of the daytime, but unspeakable, invisible, such as no man can describe, even such that we were beside ourselves with bewilderment, calling on the Lord and saying: Have mercy, Lord, upon us thy servants: what we are able to bear, that, Lord, give thou us; for this we can neither see nor endure. And as we lay there, only those widows stood up which were blind; and the bright light which appeared unto us entered into their eyes and made them to see. Unto whom Peter said: Tell us what ye saw. And they said: We saw an old man of such comeliness as we are not able to declare to thee; but others said: We saw a young man; and others: We saw a boy touching our eyes delicately, and so were our eyes opened. Peter therefore magnified the Lord, saying: Thou only art the Lord God, and of what lips have we need to give thee due praise? and how can we give thee thanks according to thy mercy? Therefore, brethren, as I told you but a little while since, God that is constant is greater than our thoughts, even as we have learned of these aged widows, how that they beheld the Lord in divers forms.

Acts of Peter, 24 [ca. 150-200?]
Another prophet saith: "Born not of the womb of a woman, but from a heavenly place came he down."

The Ascension of Isaiah, 9:12-18 [ca. 150-200?]
And he said unto me: "Crowns and thrones of glory they do not receive, till the Beloved will descent in the form in which you will see Him descent [will descent, I say] into the world in the last days the Lord, who will be called Christ. Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is. And thus His descent, as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day, [and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty-five days]. And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till the Lord Christ ascend and they ascend with Him. Then indeed they will receive their [garments and] thrones and crowns, when He has ascended into the seventh heaven."

The Ascension of Isaiah, 11:7-14 [ca. 150-200?]
It came to pass that when they were alone that Mary straight-way looked with her eyes and saw a small babe, and she was astonished. And after she had been astonished, her womb was found as formerly before she had conceived. And when her husband Joseph said unto her: "What has astonished thee?" his eyes were opened and he saw the infant and praised God, because into his portion God had come. And a voice came to them: "Tell this vision to no one." And the story regarding the infant was noised broad in Bethlehem. Some said: "The Virgin Mary hath borne a child, before she was married two months." And many said: "She has not borne a child, nor has a midwife gone up (to her), nor have we heard the cries of (labour) pains." And they were all blinded respecting Him and they all knew regarding Him, though they knew not whence He was.

Acts of John, 88-89 [ca. 150-200?]
For when he had chosen Peter and Andrew, which were brethren, he cometh unto me and James my brother, saying: I have need of you, come unto me. And my brother hearing that, said: John, what would this child have that is upon the sea-shore and called us? And I said: What child? And he said to me again: That which beckoneth to us. And I answered: Because of our long watch we have kept at sea, thou seest not aright, my brother James; but seest thou not the man that standeth there, comely and fair and of a cheerful countenance? But he said to me: Him I see not, brother; but let us go forth and we shall see what he would have. And so when we had brought the ship to land, we saw him also helping along with us to settle the ship: and when we departed from that place, being minded to follow him, again he was seen of me as having rather bald, but the beard thick and flowing, but of James as a youth whose beard was newly come. We were therefore perplexed, both of us, as to what that which we had seen should mean. And after that, as we followed him, both of us were by little and little [yet more] perplexed as we considered the matter. Yet unto me there then appeared this yet more wonderful thing: for I would try to see him privily, and I never at any time saw his eyes closing (winking), but only open. And oft-times he would appear to me as a small man and uncomely, and then again as one reaching unto heaven. Also there was in him another marvel: when I sat at meat he would take me upon his own breast; and sometimes his breast was felt of me to be smooth and tender, and sometimes hard like unto stones, so that I was perplexed in myself and said: Wherefore is this so unto me? And as I considered this, he . . .

Acts of John, 93 [ca. 150-200?]
Another glory also will I tell you, brethren: Sometimes when I would lay hold on him, I met with a material and solid body, and at other times, again, when I felt him, the substance was immaterial and as if it existed not at all. And if at any time he were bidden by some one of the Pharisees and went to the bidding, we went with him, and there was set before each one of us a loaf by them that had bidden us, and with us he also received one; and his own he would bless and part it among us: and of that little every one was filled, and our own loaves were saved whole, so that they which bade him were amazed. And oftentimes when I walked with him, I desired to see the print of his foot, whether it appeared on the earth; for I saw him as it were lifting himself up from the earth: and I never saw it. And these things I speak unto you, brethren, for the encouragement of your faith toward him; for we must at the present keep silence concerning his mighty and wonderful works, inasmuch as they are unspeakable and, it may be, cannot at all be either uttered or heard.

Acts of John, 97 [ca. 150-200?]
97 Thus, my beloved, having danced with us the Lord went forth. And we as men gone astray or dazed with sleep fled this way and that. I, then, when I saw him suffer, did not even abide by his suffering, but fled unto the Mount of Olives, weeping at that which had befallen. And when he was crucified on the Friday, at the sixth hour of the day, darkness came upon all the earth. And my Lord standing in the midst of the cave and enlightening it, said: John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink. But unto thee I speak, and what I speak hear thou. I put it into thy mind to come up into this mountain, that thou mightest hear those things which it behoveth a disciple to learn from his teacher and a man from his God.

Acts of John 98-102 [ca. 150-200?]
98 And having thus spoken, he showed me a cross of light fixed (set up), and about the cross a great multitude, not having one form: and in it (the cross) was one form and one likenesst [so the MS.; I would read: and therein was one form and one likeness: and in the cross another multitude, not having one form]. And the Lord himself I beheld above the cross, not having any shape, but only a voice: and a voice not such as was familiar to us, but one sweet and kind and truly of God, saying unto me: John, it is needful that one should hear these things from me, for I have need of one that will hear. This cross of light is sometimes called the (or a) word by me for your sakes, sometimes mind, sometimes Jesus, sometimes Christ, sometimes door, sometimes a way, sometimes bread, sometimes seed, sometimes resurrection, sometimes Son, sometimes Father, sometimes Spirit, sometimes life, sometimes truth, sometimes faith, sometimes grace. And by these names it is called as toward men: but that which it is in truth, as conceived of in itself and as spoken of unto you (MS. us), it is the marking-off of all things, and the firm uplifting of things fixed out of things unstable, and the harmony of wisdom, and indeed wisdom in harmony [this last clause in the MS. is joined to the next: 'and being wisdom in harmony']. There are of the right hand and the left, powers also, authorities, lordships and demons, workings, threatenings, wraths, devils, Satan, and the lower root whence the nature of the things that come into being proceeded.
99 This cross, then, is that which fixed all things apart (al. joined all things unto itself) by the (or a) word, and separate off the things that are from those that are below (lit. the things from birth and below it), and then also, being one, streamed forth into all things (or, made all flow forth. I suggested: compacted all into ). But this is not the cross of wood which thou wilt see when thou goest down hence: neither am I he that is on the cross, whom now thou seest not, but only hearest his (or a) voice. I was reckoned to be that which I am not, not being what I was unto many others: but they will call me (say of me) something else which is vile and not worthy of me. As, then, the place of rest is neither seen nor spoken of, much more shall I, the Lord thereof, be neither seen .
100 Now the multitude of one aspect (al. of one aspect) that is about the cross is the lower nature: and they whom thou seest in the cross, if they have not one form, it is because not yet hath every member of him that came down been comprehended. But when the human nature (or the upper nature) is taken up, and the race which draweth near unto me and obeyeth my voice, he that now heareth me shall be united therewith, and shall no more be that which now he is, but above them, as I also now am. For so long as thou callest not thyself mine, I am not that which I am (or was): but if thou hear me, thou, hearing, shalt be as I am, and I shall be that which I was, when I thee as I am with myself. For from me thou art that (which I am). Care not therefore for the many, and them that are outside the mystery despise; for know thou that I am wholly with the Father, and the Father with me.
101 Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance, I will that it be called a mystery. For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto. Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer. Now what those things are I signify unto thee, for I know that thou wilt understand. Perceive thou therefore in me the praising (al. slaying al. rest) of the (or a) Word (Logos), the piercing of the Word, the blood of the Word, the wound of the Word, the hanging up of the Word, the suffering of the Word, the nailing (fixing) of the Word, the death of the Word. And so speak I, separating off the manhood. Perceive thou therefore in the first place of the Word; then shalt thou perceive the Lord, and in the third place the man, and what he hath suffered.
102 When he had spoken unto me these things, and others which I know not how to say as he would have me, he was taken up, no one of the multitudes having beheld him. And when I went down I laughed them all to scorn, inasmuch as he had told me the things which they have said concerning him; holding fast this one thing in myself, that the Lord contrived all things symbolically and by a dispensation toward men, for their conversion and salvation.

Acts of John, 104 [ca. 150-200?]
Be ye also persuaded, therefore, beloved, that it is not a man whom I preach unto you to worship, but God unchangeable, God invincible, God higher than all authority and all power, and elder and mightier than all angels and creatures that are named, and all aeons. If then ye abide in him, and are builded up in him, ye shall possess your soul indestructible.

NHL Apocalypse of Peter [ca. 150-250?]
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

NHL Apocalypse of Peter [ca. 150-250?]
And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking at those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma, which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit."

The Letter of Peter to Philip [ca. 170-220?]
And Peter opened his mouth, he said to his (fellow) disciples, "Did our Lord Jesus, when he was in the body, show us everything? For he came down. My brothers, listen to my voice." And he was filled with a holy spirit. He spoke thus: "Our illuminator, Jesus, came down and was crucified. And he bore a crown of thorns. And he put on a purple garment. And he was crucified on a tree and he was buried in a tomb. And he rose from the dead. My brothers, Jesus is a stranger to this suffering. But we are the ones who have suffered through the transgression of the mother. And because of this, he did everything like us."

Gospel of Philip [ca. 180-250?]
Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness.

Gospel of Philip [ca. 180-250?]
Before Christ, some came from a place they were no longer able to enter, and they went where they were no longer able to come out. Then Christ came. Those who went in, he brought out, and those who went out, he brought in. When Eve was still with Adam, death did not exist. When she was separated from him, death came into being. If he enters again and attains his former self, death will be no more. "My God, my God, why, O Lord, have you forsaken me?" (Mk 15:34). It was on the cross that he said these words, for he had departed from that place.

Gospel of Philip, 68.34-37 [as reconstructed by Wilson, NHL, and quoted by Yamauchi, 'The Crucifixion and Docetic Christology']
[He did indeed possess] flesh, but his [flesh] is true flesh. [Our flesh] is not true, but [we possess] only an image of the true.

First Apocalypse of James [ca. 180-250?]
The Lord said, "James, do not be concerned for me or for this people. I am he who was within me. Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm. But this (people) existed as a type of the archons, and it deserved to be destroyed through them.

The Second Treatise of the Great Seth [ca. 190-230?]
And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.

Zostrianos [ca. 200-230?]
... imperishable fruit, living men and every species, immortal souls, every form and species of mind, true gods, angels existing in great glory, an indissoluable body, an unborn birth and an immovable perception. Also there was the one who suffers, although he is unable to suffer, for he was a power of a power.

Infancy Gospel of James, 14 [ca. 2nd century?]
And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things -- because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary.

A Latin Infancy Gospel, in the Arundel Manuscript [date uncertain - from Latin Infancy Gospels, ed. M. R. James, pp. xx-xxi]
But when the light had come forth she adored him. ... Now this light was so born like as dew from heaven ... Now I stood amazed and marvelling, and fear laid hold upon me, for I was looking upon so great brightness of the light that was born. But that light by little and little withdrawing into itself, made itself like to an infant, and in a moment it became an infant as infants are wont to be born, and I put on boldness and bowed myself and touched him and lifted him up in my hands with great fear, and I was smitten with fear for there was no weight in him as of a man that is born ... and as I wondered much because he did not cry like as infants newborn are wont to cry, and as I held him, looking upon his face, he smiled upon me with a most merry smile, and opening his eyes he looked upon me sharply and suddenly there came forth a great light from his eyes, as a great lightning.

Acts of Thomas, 80 [? - probably not a reference]
... Glory to thy majesty which for our sakes was made small; glory to thy most exalted kingship which for our sakes was humbled; glory to thy strength which for our sakes was made weak; glory to thy Godhead which for our sakes was seen in the likeness of men; glory to thy manhood which for our sakes died that it might make us live; glory to thy resurrection from the dead, for through it rising and rest come to our souls ...

Acts of John, 224 [Christ in another guise]
Drusiana had said, "The Lord appeared to me in the tomb in the form of John and in that of a young man."

Acts of Peter, 305 [Christ in another guise]
And immediately a man who looked like yourself, Peter, [appeared] ... so that I gazed upon you both, both on you and on the one ... whose likeness [of you] caused me great amazement. And now I have awakened, and have told you these signs of Christ.

Acts of Paul, 358 [Christ in another guise]
But Thecla sought for Paul, as a lamb in the wilderness looks about for the shepherd. And when she looked upon the crowd, she saw the Lord sitting in the form of Paul.

Acts of Andrew, 414 [Christ in another guise]
Maximilla, the Lord going before her in the form of Andrew, went with Iphidamia to the prison.

Acts of Thomas, 448 [Christ in another guise]
And he saw the Lord Jesus in the likeness of the apostle Judas Thomas.

Quran 4:156
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

(B) New Testament

Galatians 4:4 [?]
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law.

1 Corinthians 12:3 [?] (cf. Origen, Contra Celsum, 6.28)
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

1 John 1:1-3
We declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us— 3 we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

John 1:14 (cf. Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 18 - "This saying testifies and declares what it was that was made flesh")
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

John 19:34-35 (cf. John 4:14, John 6:54, 1 John 5:6, Ign. Eph. 18:2; cf. John 6:66, 1 John 2:19, Ign. Smyrn. 6:2; cf. Origen, Contra Celsum 2.36)
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out. (He who saw this has testified so that you also may believe. His testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth.)

John 20:20; 20:27 (cf. John 19:34, Luke 24:40, Ign. Smyrn. 3:1)
After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. ... Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.”

Matthew 27:49 (second century in origin, generally considered an interpolation based on GJohn)
And another took a spear and pierced his side, and there came out water and blood.

Luke 1:31 (cf. Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 17 - "by this method, if by no other, it will be established that his flesh was human, if it derived its substance from a human womb")
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

Luke 1:42 (cf. Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 21 - "If Mary was carrying Jesus in her womb not as a son but as a guest, what can Elisabeth mean")
and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!"

Luke 22:43-44 (often considered a second century anti-docetic interpolation; cf. Justin Martyr, Dial. Trypho, 103)
Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and gave him strength. In his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.

Luke 24:37-43 (often considered "anti-docetic," cf. Ign. Smyrn. 3:1)
But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself ! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.

The "western non-interpolations" in Luke 24 [some of them may be intended to combat Marcionite interpretations of the same text]
Luke 24:3. But, having gone in, they did not find the body [of the Lord Jesus].
Luke 24:5. Why do you seek the living with the dead? [He is not here, but has risen up.]
Luke 24:12. [But Peter rose and ran to the tomb and, having stooped down, sees the wrappings only, and he went away to his own (home), marvelling at what had happened.]
Luke 24:36. But while they were speaking these things he himself stood in their midst [and says to them: Peace to you].
Luke 24:40. [And, having said this, he showed them his hands and feet.]
Luke 24:51. And it happened that, while he was blessing them, he departed from them [and was borne up into heaven].
Luke 24:52. And they themselves, [having worshipped him], returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

1 Timothy 3:16-4:3; 6:20-21
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. ... O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," for by professing it some have swerved from the faith.

2 Peter 1:16; 2:1; 3:15-16
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. ... But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. ... So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

(C) Corpus of Ignatius & Polycarp

Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, 1-6
1:1 I give glory to Jesus Christ the God who bestowed such wisdom upon you; for I have perceived that ye are established in faith immovable, being as it were nailed on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, in flesh and in spirit, and firmly grounded in love in the blood of Christ, fully persuaded as touching our Lord that He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, 1:2 truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we -- that is, of His most blessed passion); that He might set up an ensign unto all the ages through His resurrection, for His saints and faithful people, whether among Jews or among Gentiles, in one body of His Church.
2:1 For He suffered all these things for our sakes [that we might be saved]; and He suffered truly, as also He raised Himself truly; not as certain unbelievers say, that He suffered in semblance, being themselves mere semblance. And according as their opinions are, so shall it happen to them, for they are without body and demon-like.
3:1 For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; 3:2 and when He came to Peter and his company, He said to them, Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without body. And straightway they touched Him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood. Therefore also they despised death, nay they were found superior to death. 3:3 And after His resurrection He [both] ate with them and drank with them as one in the flesh, though spiritually He was united with the Father.
4:1 But these things I warn you, dearly beloved, knowing that ye yourselves are so minded. Howbeit I watch over you betimes to protect you from wild beasts in human form -- men whom not only should ye not receive, but, if it were possible, not so much as meet [them]; only pray ye for them, if haply they may repent. This indeed is difficult, but Jesus Christ, our true life, hath power over it. 4:2 For if these things were done by our Lord in semblance, then am I also a prisoner in semblance. And why then have I delivered myself over to death, unto fire, unto sword, unto wild beasts? But near to the sword, near to God; in company with wild beasts, in company with God. Only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ, so that we may suffer together with Him. I endure all things, seeing that He Himself enableth me, who is perfect Man.
5:1 But certain persons ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being advocates of death rather than of the truth; and they have not been persuaded by the prophecies nor by the law of Moses, nay nor even to this very hour by the Gospel, nor by the sufferings of each of us severally; 5:2 for they are of the same mind also concerning us. For what profit is it [to me], if a man praiseth me, but blasphemeth my Lord, not confessing that He was a bearer of flesh? Yet he that affirmeth not this, doth thereby deny Him altogether, being himself a bearer of a corpse. 5:3 But their names, being unbelievers, I have not thought fit to record in writing; nay, far be it from me even to remember them, until they repent and return to the passion, which is our resurrection.
6:1 Let no man be deceived. Even the heavenly beings and the glory of the angels and the rulers visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ [who is God], judgment awaiteth them also. He that receiveth let him receive. Let not office puff up any man; for faith and love are all in all, and nothing is preferred before them. 6:2 But mark ye those who hold strange doctrine touching the grace of Jesus Christ which came to us, how that they are contrary to the mind of God. They have no care for love, none for the widow, none for the orphan, none for the afflicted, none for the prisoner, none for the hungry or thirsty. They abstain from eucharist (thanksgiving) and prayer, because they allow not that the eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up.

Ignatius to the Trallians, 9-10
Be ye deaf, therefore, when any one speaketh unto you apart from Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David, who was born of Mary, who was truly born, ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died, in the sight of the things that are in heaven and on earth and under the earth; and was truly raised from the dead, his Father having raised him up; according to the similitude of which also his Father shall raise up us who believe in him in Christ Jesus, apart from whom we have not the true life. But if, as certain men who are without God, that is unbelievers, assert, his passion was an appearance, being themselves an appearance, why am I bound, and why do I pray to fight with wild beasts? therefore I die in vain. Of a truth, do I not lie against the Lord?

Ignatius to the Ephesians, 7:2
There is one only physician, of flesh and of spirit, generate and ingenerate, God in man, true Life in death, Son of Mary and Son of God, first passible and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ignatius to the Ephesians, 18:2
For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived in the womb by Mary according to a dispensation, of the seed of David but also of the Holy Ghost; and He was born and was baptized that by His passion He might cleanse water.

Ignatius to the Philadelphians, 8:2 (of interest, tangentially - the opponents need everything shown from ancient scripture)
and I exhort you to do nothing of contention, but according to the discipline of Christ. Since I have heard certain men say, "Unless I find it in the ancients, I believe it not in the Gospel." And when I said unto them that "It is written," they replied, "That it is set forth aforetime." But my archives are Jesus Christ; his cross and his death, his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are inviolable archives, through which I desire to be justified by means of your prayers.

Polycarp to the Philippians, 7:1 (cf. 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 7)
For every one who shall not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is antichrist: and whosoever shall not confess the testimony of the Cross, is of the devil; and whosoever shall pervert the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts and say that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, that man is the firstborn of Satan.

(D) 3 Corinthians, Epistula Apostolorum, Melchizedek, Treatise on the Resurrection, Old Latin Prologue, Muratorian Fragment (various)

3 Corinthians, 1 [ca. 125-200?]
Simon and Cleobius had come to Corinth with this message: "There is no resurrection of the flesh but (only) of the spirit, and the human body is not a divine creation, and, with regard to the world, God neither created it nor knows it, nor has Jesus Christ been crucified--he was mere appearance; he was neither born of Mary nor was he of Davidic descent."

3 Corinthians, II.2-5, II.9-15 [ca. 125-200?]
"Two individuals have come to Corinth, Simon and Cleobius; they overthrow the faith of some with corrupt words. These you will examine, for we never heard such things either from you or from the others. But we maintain what we have received from you and from them. ... They say and teach as follows: The prophets are not to be utilized; God is not almighty; there is no resurrection of the flesh; God did not fashion the human race; The Lord neither came in the flesh nor was he born of Mary; the world is not of God but of angels."

3 Corinthians, IV.4-40 [ca. 125-200?]
"The Lord Christ will quickly come, since he is rejected by those who falsify his teaching. For I delivered unto you first of all what I received from the apostles before me who were always with Jesus Christ, that our Lord Christ Jesus was of Davidic descent, born of Mary, into whom the Father sent the spirit from heaven that he might come into this world and liberate all flesh by his own flesh, and that he might raise us in the flesh from the dead as he has shown us by example. Humanity was created by his Father and was thus sought by God when lost, so that it might become alive by adoption. For the almighty God of the universe, maker of heaven and earth, sent the prophets first to the Jews to deliver them from their sins, as he desired to save the house of Israel; therefore he distributed some of the spirit of Christ and apportioned it to the prophets who proclaimed the true worship of God over a long period. Yet the (evil) prince wished to be god himself and laid his hands on them and bound all human flesh to lust. But the almighty God, who is just, did not wish to nullify his own creation and sent Spirit through fire into Mary the Galilean, that the evil one might be conquered by the same flesh by which he ruled and be convinced that he is not God. For by his own body Jesus Christ saved all flesh, so that he might exhibit a temple of righteousness in his own body by which we are liberated. Those who impede the providence of God by denying that heaven and earth and all that is in them are works of the father are children of wrath, not of righteousness. They possess the accursed faith of the serpent. Avoid them and keep your distance from their teaching. For those who tell you that there is no resurrection of the flesh there will be no resurrection--Those who do not believe the one who thus (in the flesh) rose. For they do not know, Corinthians, about the sowing of wheat or other seeds that one casts naked upon the ground and dies, then rises by God's will, in a body and clothed. God not only raises the sown body but also bestows upon it abundant blessings. If we cannot develop a parable from seeds, you know of Jonah, the son of Amathios who, when he refused to preach to the Ninevites, was swallowed up by a sea-monster. After three days and three nights God heard the prayer of Jonah from the depths of Hades. No part of him was corrupted, not even a hair or an eyelid. How much more, you of limited faith, will he raise those who have believed in Christ Jesus, as he himself was raised up? When some Israelites threw a corpse on the bones of the prophet Elisha, the person's body was raised. So also will you, upon whom the body, bones, and spirit of Christ have been thrown, be raised on that day with a whole body. If, however, you receive any different teaching, do not trouble me, for I have shackles on my hands so that I may gain Christ and marks on my body that I may attain to the resurrection of the dead. Whoever abides by the rule which we have received through the blessed prophets and the holy gospel, shall receive a reward, but whoever transgresses these, and those who did so earlier will receive fire, since they are godless persons, a generation of vipers. Rebuff them by the power of Christ. Peace be with you."

Epistula Apostolorum [ca. 140-150]
1 ... Simon and Cerinthus, the false apostles, concerning whom it is written that no man shall cleave unto them, for there is in them deceit wherewith they bring men to destruction. (The book hath been written) that ye may be not flinch nor be troubled, and depart not from the word of the Gospel which ye have heard. ...
2 ... we do write according as we have seen and heard and touched him, after that he was risen from the dead: ...
3 ... of whom the apostles preached, and whom the disciples did touch. In God, the Lord, the Son of God, do we believe, that he is the word become flesh: that of Mary the holy virgin he took a body, begotten of the Holy Ghost, not of the will (lust) of the flesh, but by the will of God: that he was wrapped in swaddling clothes in Bethlehem and made manifest, and grew up and came to ripe age, when also we beheld it. ...
7 Cerinthus and Simon are come to go to and fro in the world, but they are enemies of our Lord Jesus Christ, for they do pervert the word and the true thing, even (faith in) Jesus Christ. Keep yourselves therefore far from them, for death is in them, and great pollution and corruption, even in these on whom shall come judgement and the end and everlasting destruction. ...
11 Then said the Lord unto Mary and her sisters: Let us go unto them. And he came and found us within (sitting veiled or fishing, Eth.), and called us out; but we thought that it was a phantom and believed not that it was the Lord. Then said he unto us: Come, fear ye not. I am your master, even he, O Peter, whom thou didst deny thrice; and dost thou now deny again? And we came unto him, doubting in our hearts whether it were he. Then said he unto us: Wherefore doubt ye still, and are unbelieving? I am he that spake unto you of my flesh and my death and my resurrection. But that ye may know that I am he, do thou, Peter, put thy finger into the print of the nails in mine hands, and thou also, Thomas, put thy finger into the wound of the spear in my side; but thou, Andrew, look on my feet and see whether they press the earth; for it is written in the prophet: A phantom of a devil maketh no footprint on the earth.
12 And we touched him, that we might learn of a truth whether he were risen in the flesh; and we fell on our faces (and worshipped him) confessing our sin, that we had been unbelieving. ...

Melchizedek [ca. 150-255?]
Furthermore, they will say of him that he is unbegotten, though he has been begotten, (that) he does not eat, even though he eats, (that) he does not drink, even though he drinks, (that) he is uncircumcised, though he has been circumcised, (that) he is unfleshly, though he has come in the flesh, (that) he did not come to suffering, <though> he came to suffering, (that) he did not rise from the dead, <though> he arose from the dead.

Treatise on the Resurrection [ca. 170-200?]
How did the Lord proclaim things while he existed in flesh and after he had revealed himself as Son of God? He lived in this place where you remain, speaking about the Law of Nature - but I call it 'Death'. Now the Son of God, Rheginos, was Son of Man. He embraced them both, possessing the humanity and the divinity, so that on the one hand he might vanquish death through his being Son of God, and that on the other through the Son of Man the restoration to the Pleroma might occur; because he was originally from above, a seed of Truth, before this structure had come into being.

Old Latin Prologue (aka Anti-Marcionite prologue) to the Gospel of John [ca. 2nd century - regarding a controversy with Marcion and John]
This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John, as yet still in the body, as the Heiropolitan, Papias by name, dear disciple of John, transmitted in his Exoteric, that is, the outside five books. He wrote down this gospel while John dictated. Truly Marcion the heretic, when he had been disapproved by him because he supposed contrary things, was thrown out by John. He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Muratorian Fragment [ca. late second century? remarks at http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2003/10/ ... canon.html by Stephen Carlson]
The Muratorian Fragment has a brief remark, fel enim cum melle misceri non congruit “for it is not fitting to mix gall with honey.”

Although the Muratorian Fragment lists several second century heretics, it does not list Cerinthus, the heresiarch against whom Irenaeus claimed that the Gospel according to John was written. Cerinthus means “bee-bread,” which Pliny Natural History 11, 17 explains as having a bitter taste : Praeter haec convehitur erithace, quam aliqui sandaracam, alii cerinthum vocant. hic erit apium dum operantur cibus, qui saepe invenitur in favorum inanitatibus sepositus, et ipse amari saporis.

Fel “gall” was commonly used as a generic term for a bitter-tasting item, and bee-bread, called “cerinthus,” is a mixture of (bitter) pollen and honey. Thus, the mixture of gall and honey may well be a pun on Cerinthus.

[Cerinthus is both a Latin word and a name. -ed.]

Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.3.4 [a tradition related to the two previous items]
But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

(continued below - I've run out of space in the OP!)

Stephan Huller · Post by **Stephan Huller** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:43 pm

You've overlooked the most important reference of them all - Luke 4:30. The gospel begins (the original Marcionite text) with Jesus descending from heaven somewhere between Jerusalem and Jericho ('Judea' so Irenaeus in Adv Haer 1.27.1). Then he goes to the Jews in 'beth saida' (my assumption 'the Jerusalem temple as 'house of demons' as seen in the Solomon lore cf. Testimony of Truth from Nag Hammadi) and the Jews try and push him off a cliff (hard to imagine a fishing village having a 'cliff') and they either pass through his body (Marcion) or Jesus flies up in the other sending the Jews hurtling into the depths.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1 ... id=3739256
http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/v01/Baarda1996rev.html

Post by **Peter Kirby** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:46 pm

(OP continued)

(E) Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Serapion of Antioch, Origen (church fathers, not part of anti-heretical books)

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 103
For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them, [it is recorded] that His sweat fell down like drops of blood while He was praying, and saying, 'If it be possible, let this cup pass:' His heart and also His bones trembling; His heart being like wax melting in His belly: in order that we may perceive that the Father wished His Son really to undergo such sufferings for our sakes, and may not say that He, being the Son of God, did not feel what was happening to Him and inflicted on Him.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 3.13
In such ways Julius Cassian, the founder of docetism, argues his case.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 3.17
They blaspheme against the will of God and the mystery of creation in speaking evil of birth. This is the ground upon which Docetism is held by Cassian and by Marcion also, and on which even Valentine indeed teaches that Christ's body was "psychic."

Serapion, bishop of Antioch - in Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 6.22 [regarding the Gospel of Peter]
Moreover, brethren, we, having discovered to what kind of heresy Marcion adhered, and seen how he contradicted himself, not understanding of what he was speaking, as you will gather from what has been written to you -for, having borrowed this said Gospel from those who were familiar with it from constant perusal, namely from the successors of those who were his leaders in the heresy, whom we call Docetae (for most of the opinions held by him are derived from their teaching), we were able to read it through; and while we found most of its contents to agree with the orthodox account of the Saviour, we found some things inconsistent with that, and these we have set down below for your inspection.

Origen, Contra Celsum, 1.69-70, 2.25 [writing against Celsus, True Doctrine, ca. AD 170]
After this, Celsus, confusing together the Christian doctrine and the opinions of some heretical sect, and bringing them forward as charges that were applicable to all who believe in the divine word, says: Such a body as yours could not have belonged to God. Now, in answer to this, we have to say that Jesus, on entering into the world, assumed, as one born of a woman, a human body, and one which was capable of suffering a natural death. For which reason, in addition to others, we say that He was also a great wrestler; having, on account of His human body, been tempted in all respects like other men, but no longer as men, with sin as a consequence, but being altogether without sin. For it is distinctly clear to us that He did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth; and as one who knew no sin, God delivered Him up as pure for all who had sinned. Then Celsus says: The body of god would not have been so generated as you, O Jesus, were. He saw, besides, that if, as it is written, it had been born, His body somehow might be even more divine than that of the multitude, and in a certain sense a body of god. But he disbelieves the accounts of His conception by the Holy Ghost, and believes that He was begotten by one Panthera, who corrupted the Virgin, because a god's body would not have been so generated as you were. But we have spoken of these matters at greater length in the preceding pages.
He asserts, moreover, that the body of a god is not nourished with such food (as was that of Jesus), since he is able to prove from the Gospel narratives both that He partook of food, and food of a particular kind. Well, be it so. Let him assert that He ate the passover with His disciples, when He not only used the words, With desire have I desired to eat this passover with you, but also actually partook of the same. And let him say also, that He experienced the sensation of thirst beside the well of Jacob, and drank of the water of the well. In what respect do these facts militate against what we have said respecting the nature of His body? Moreover, it appears indubitable that after His resurrection He ate a piece of fish; for, according to our view, He assumed a (true) body, as one born of a woman. But, objects Celsus, the body of a god does not make use of such a voice as that of Jesus, nor employ such a method of persuasion as he. These are, indeed, trifling and altogether contemptible objections. For our reply to him will be, that he who is believed among the Greeks to be a god, viz., the Pythian and Didymean Apollo, makes use of such a voice for his Pythian priestess at Delphi, and for his prophetess at Miletus; and yet neither the Pythian nor Didymean is charged by the Greeks with not being a god, nor any other Grecian deity whose worship is established in one place. And it was far better, surely, that a god should employ a voice which, on account of its being uttered with power, should produce an indescribable sort of persuasion in the minds of the hearers.
... But if, as Celsus would allege, nothing at that time was done to Jesus which was either painful or distressing, how could men afterwards quote the example of Jesus as enduring sufferings for the sake of religion, if He did not suffer what are human sufferings, but only had the appearance of so doing?

Origen, Contra Celsum, 2. 60-61 [not docetism but related to claims of Jesus not truly dying]
But the question is, whether any one who was really dead ever rose with a veritable body. Or do you imagine the statements of others not only to be myths, but to have the appearance of such, while you have discovered a becoming and credible termination to your drama in the voice from the cross, when he breathed his last, and in the earthquake and the darkness? ... But since the Jew says that these histories of the alleged descent of heroes to Hades, and of their return thence, are juggling impositions, maintaining that these heroes disappeared for a certain time, and secretly withdrew themselves from the sight of all men, and gave themselves out afterwards as having returned from Hades ... Probably, then, in addition to other causes for the crucifixion of Jesus, this also may have contributed to His dying a conspicuous death upon the cross, that no one might have it in his power to say that He voluntarily withdrew from the sight of men, and seemed only to die, without really doing so; but, appearing again, made a juggler's trick of the resurrection from the dead.

Origen, Contra Celsum, 6.28 [ca. 230]
Now he ought to have known that those who have espoused the cause of the serpent, because he gave good advice to the first human beings, and who go far beyond the Titans and Giants of fable, and are on this account called Ophites, are so far from being Christians, that they bring accusations against Jesus to as great a degree as Celsus himself; and they do not admit any one into their assembly until he has uttered maledictions against Jesus.

Catena fragm. 47 on 1 Corinthians 12:3
There is a certain sect which does not admit a convert unless he pronounces anathemas on Jesus; and that sect is worthy of the name which it has chosen; for it is the sect of the so-called Ophites, who utter blasphemous words in praise of the serpent.

(F) Irenaeus of Lyons, Hippolytus of Rome, Tertullian, Epiphanius, Jerome (anti-heretical books)

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer. 1.23.3 [describing Simon the Samaritan, supposedly the beginning of "knowledge, falsely so called"]
For since the angels ruled the world ill because each one of them coveted the principal power for himself, he [Simon] had come to amend matters, and had descended, transfigured and assimilated to powers and principalities and angels, so that he might appear among men to be a man, while yet he was not a man; and that thus he was thought to have suffered in Judaea, when he had not suffered. Moreover, the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of those angels who formed the world; for which reason those who place their trust in him and Helena no longer regarded them, but, as being free, live as they please; for men are saved through his grace, and not on account of their own righteous actions.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer. 1.24.2 [of Saturninus]
He has also laid it down as a truth, that the Saviour was without birth, without body, and without figure, but was, by supposition, a visible man; and he maintained that the God of the Jews was one of the angels; and, on this account, because all the powers wished to annihilate his father, Christ came to destroy the God of the Jews, but to save such as believe in him; that is, those who possess the spark of his life.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer. 1.24.4 [of Basilides]
He appeared, then, on earth as a man, to the nations of these powers, and wrought miracles. Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer., 1.25.1 [of Carpocrates]
They also hold that Jesus was the son of Joseph, and was just like other men, with the exception that he differed from them in this respect, that inasmuch as his soul was stedfast and pure, he perfectly remembered those things which he had witnessed within the sphere of the unbegotten God. On this account, a power descended upon him from the Father, that by means of it he might escape from the creators of the world; and they say that it, after passing through them all, and remaining in all points free, ascended again to him, and to the powers, which in the same way embraced like things to itself.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer., 1.26.1 [of Cerinthus]
He represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was more righteous, prudent, and wise than other men. Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the unknown Father, and performed miracles. But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassible, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer. 1.26.2
Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer. 1.27.2 [of Marcion]
But Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world, and coming into Judaea in the times of Pontius Pilate the governor, who was the procurator of Tiberius Caesar, was manifested in the form of a man to those who were in Judaea, abolishing the prophets and the law, and all the works of that God who made the world, whom also he calls Cosmocrator.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer., 5.19
Others still despise the advent of the Lord manifest [to the senses], for they do not admit his incarnation; while others, ignoring the arrangement that he should be born of a virgin, maintain that he was begotten by Joseph.

Hippolytus, Refutation 5.21 [of Justinus the Sethian]
Finally, however, in the days of Herod the king, Baruch is despatched, being sent down once more by Elohim; and coming to Nazareth, he found Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary, a child of twelve years, feeding sheep. And he announces to him all things from the beginning, whatsoever had been done by Edem and Elohim, and whatsoever would be likely to take place hereafter, and spoke the following words: "All the prophets anterior to you have been enticed. Put forth an effort, therefore, Jesus, Son of man, not to be allured, but preach this word unto men, and carry back tidings to them of things pertaining to the Father, and things pertaining to the Good One, and ascend to the Good One, and sit there with Elohim, Father of us all." And Jesus was obedient unto the angel, saying that, "I shall do all things, Lord," and proceeded to preach. Naas therefore wished to entice this one also.
Jesus, however, was not disposed to listen to his overtures, for he remained faithful to Baruch. Therefore Naas, being inflamed with anger because he was not able to seduce him, caused him to be crucified. He, however, leaving the body of Edem on the (accursed) tree, ascended to the Good One; saying, however, to Edem, "Woman, thou retainest thy son," that is, the natural and the earthly man. But (Jesus) himself commending his spirit into the hands of the Father, ascended to the Good One.

Hippolytus, Refutation 8.3
He washed in Jordan, and when He was baptized He received a figure and a seal in the water of (another spiritual body beside) the body born of the Virgin. (And the object of this was,) when the Archon condemned his own peculiar figment (of flesh) to death, (that is,) to the cross, that that soul which had been nourished in the body (born of the Virgin) might strip off that body and nail it to the (accursed) tree. (In this way the soul) would triumph by means of this (body) over principalities and powers, and would not be found naked, but would, instead of that flesh, assume the (other) body, which had been represented in the water when he was being baptized.

Tertullian, Adv. Marc., 3.11
All these tricks about a putative corporeality Marcion has adopted lest the truth of Christ's birth should be argued from the reality of his human nature, and thus Christ should be vindicated as the work of the Creator [Demiurge] and be shown to have human flesh even as he had human birth

Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 1
Marcion, with the purpose of denying Christ's flesh, also denied his nativity: or else, with intent to deny his nativity, denied his flesh. Evidently his intention was that nativity and flesh should not give mutual testimony each to the other, inasmuch as there can be neither nativity without flesh nor flesh without nativity--as though he too could not by the same heretical licence either have admitted the flesh and denied the nativity, as did Apelles his pupil and subsequent renegade, or else, admitting both flesh and nativity, have put a different meaning upon them, as did his fellow-pupil and co-renegade Valentinus.

Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 6
Next we come to certain disciples of this man of Pontus, who, driven to be wise above their master, allow Christ veritable flesh, yet without prejudice to the denial of his nativity. 'We will admit,' they say, 'that he had flesh, provided it was in no sense born.' So we come, as the proverb has it, from the limekiln to the charcoal-furnace, from Marcion to Apelles.

Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 7
But as often as there is discussion of the nativity, all those who reject it as prejudging the issue concerning the verity of the flesh in Christ, claim that the Lord himself denies having been born, on the ground that he asked, Who is my mother and who are my brethren?

Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 14
For as the Spirit of God, and the Power of the Most High, he cannot be held to be lower than the angels, seeing he is God, and the Son of God. So then, even as he is made less than the angels while clothed with manhood, even so he is not less if clothed with an angel. This view of the matter could have suited Ebion, who determines that Jesus is a bare man, merely of the seed of David, and therefore not also the Son of God--though clearly he speaks of himself in somewhat higher terms than the prophets use concerning themselves--so as to state that an angel was in him in the same way as in Zechariah, for example...

Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 15
Valentinus, by heretical privilege, allowed himself to invent a spiritual flesh of Christ. ... For, as I have read in the works of one of Valentinus' faction, in the first place they refuse to admit that terrestrial and human substance was brought into shape for Christ, lest the Lord should turn out to be of less worth than the angels, who do not consist of terrestrial flesh: and secondly, because flesh like ours would have needed to be born like us, not of the Spirit, nor of God, but of the will of a man. 'And what,' they ask, 'is the meaning of Not of corruption but of incorruption?'

Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 16
Yet once more that Alexander person, through lust of arguing, has, according to the rules of heretical trickery, made himself noteworthy by his suggestion that we affirm that Christ's purpose in clothing himself with flesh of human origin was that in himself he might bring to nought the flesh of sin.

Tertullian, De Carne Christi, 20
You allege that he was born 'by the virgin' not 'of the virgin', and 'in the womb' not 'of the womb', on the ground that when the angel in a dream said to Joseph, For that which is born in her is of the holy Spirit, he did not say 'of her'.

Epiphanius, Panarion 30.14.5 [of the Ebionites]
Moreover, they deny that he was a man, evidently on the ground of the word which the Saviour spoke when it was reported to him: "Behold, your mother and your brethren stand without." namely: "Who is my mother and who are my brethren?" And he stretched his hand towards his disciples and said: "These are my brethren and mother and sisters, who do the will of my Father."

Epiphanius, Panarion 30.16,4-5 [of the Ebionites]
They say that Christ was not begotten of God the Father, but created as one of the archangels ... that he rules over the angels and all the creatures of the Almighty, and that he came and declared, as their Gospel, which is called Gospel according to Matthew, or Gospel According to the Hebrews?, reports: "I am come to do away with sacrfices, and if you cease not sacrificing, the wrath of God will not cease from you."

Jerome, Adv. Lucif., 23 [possibly an inference from the New Testament resurrection accounts]
When the blood of Christ was but lately shed and the apostles were still in Judæa, the Lord's body was asserted to be a phantom; the Galatians had been led away to the observance of the law, and the Apostle was a second time in travail with them; the Corinthians did not believe the resurrection of the flesh, and he endeavoured by many arguments to bring them back to the right path. Then came Simon Magus and his disciple Menander.

(G) Background Material

Tobit 12:19 [angel Raphael]
Even though you saw me eat and drink, I did not eat or drink anything; what you were seeing was a vision.

(and now for the old reply to Huller...)

Stephan Huller wrote:You've overlooked the most important reference of them all - Luke 4:30. The gospel begins (the original Marcionite text) with Jesus descending from heaven somewhere between Jerusalem and Jericho ('Judea' so Irenaeus in Adv Haer 1.27.1). Then he goes to the Jews in 'beth saida' (my assumption 'the Jerusalem temple as 'house of demons' as seen in the Solomon lore cf. Testimony of Truth from Nag Hammadi) and the Jews try and push him off a cliff (hard to imagine a fishing village having a 'cliff') and they either pass through his body (Marcion) or Jesus flies up in the other sending the Jews hurtling into the depths.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1 ... id=3739256
http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/v01/Baarda1996rev.html

Thank you. Good point.

Bernard Muller · Post by **Bernard Muller** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:12 am

I want to briefly comment on passages which are 1st century (according to my research) but not widely believed to have been interpolated and could be considered against Jesus' existence.

1 John 1:1-3
We declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us— 3 we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

I do not see anything docetist in that. Docetic bodies and also real human bodies could be seen, heard and touched by humans on earth. So the quote does not constitute a "proof" against, or allusion for, docetism.
As a matter of fact, it is a claim that the author was part of a group of eyewitnesses. Even if that claim is false (and I think it is), it would still mean that Jesus was believed to have been in a human-like or totally human body on earth.

1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I note that the second "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" is not in the Alexandrian text-type:
RSV 1 Jn 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.
"Christ has come in the flesh" seems to me to be an interpolation during the docetic era, borrowing the phrase from 2 Jn 1:7.
According to my studies, 1 John & (at least most of) gJohn were written by the same author.
And gJohn was written along 3 decades starting around 75 CE (http://historical-jesus.info/jnintro.html)
and 1 John preceded gJohn (http://historical-jesus.info/jnorig.html then search on >> About authorship <<)

John 19:34-35; 20:20; 20:27 (often considered "anti-docetic")
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out. (He who saw this has testified so that you also may believe. His testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth.) ... After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. ... Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.”

Not necessarily anti-docetic:
Water & blood are also featured in 1 Jn 5:6 & 5:8. John 19:34-35 would be an "illustration" of 1 Jn 5:6 & 5:8.
For Jn 20:20 & 20:27, it is not said the disciples actually touched the resurrected Jesus. So the author was not too concerned as proving that Jesus was not a phantom. Anyway a docetic body (not to be confused with a ghost/phantom) could be touched (as for a real human body).

Luke 24:38-43 (often considered "anti-docetic")
He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself ! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.

First I think gLuke was written around 85-90 CE, well before the docetic era (http://historical-jesus.info/62.html).
It seems to me "Luke" in Lk 24:36-43 was addressing beliefs in her community Jesus reappeared as a ghost/phantom (ghost appearances after death was considered as common in antiquity & therefore would not be the proof to a real (& unique) resurrection), which she wanted to quell.

Cordially, Bernard

Post by **Peter Kirby** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:04 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:I want to briefly comment on passages which are 1st century (according to my research) but not widely believed to have been interpolated and could be considered against Jesus' existence.

If I am not convinced by your attempts to show that these passages are not anti-docetic, should I then consider these to be "against Jesus' existence"?

Bernard Muller wrote:I do not see anything docetist in that.

Bernard Muller wrote:"Christ has come in the flesh" seems to me to be an interpolation during the docetic era, borrowing the phrase from 2 Jn 1:7.

Bernard Muller wrote:Not necessarily anti-docetic:

Bernard Muller wrote:First I think gLuke was written around 85-90 CE, well before the docetic era

What convinces you of the theory of a "docetic era" and when it began?

arnoldo · Post by **arnoldo** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:35 pm

Stephan Huller wrote:You've overlooked the most important reference of them all - Luke 4:30.

The following implies that Luke 4:30 was interpreted in a non-docetic fashion.

For because of the body
they insulted our lord
and thought
that he was not God;
and they cast Him down
from above downwards.
But (exactly) by his body
it became known to them
that He is God,
in that through their midst
He was found to pass by.
For they showed this,
when they cast Him into the depth,
that the God of above
was not bodily conceived below,
but He,
by his rapidly moving to the height,
taught them this,
that indeed the body
which was cast downwards
was not his (only) nature
for to the height
rather than to the depth
it rapidly moved.
Because with the body from below
He rapidly moved.
Because with the body from below
He rapidly moved upward in the air.
they would learn (to know) God,
who from above to here below
by his grace
had descended.

Source: 'The Flying Jesus' Luke 4:29-30 in the Syriac Diatessaron

Post by **Peter Kirby** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:46 pm

arnoldo wrote:Luke 4:30 was interpreted in a non-docetic fashion.

Of course, but that seems beside the point.

On the other hand, this "Flying Jesus" business is curious...

Bernard Muller · Post by **Bernard Muller** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:56 pm

To Peter,

Bernard wrote:
I want to briefly comment on passages which are 1st century (according to my research) but not widely believed to have been interpolated and could be considered against Jesus' existence.
If I am not convinced by your attempts to show that these passages are not anti-docetic, should I then consider these to be "against Jesus' existence"?

That thread is a continuation of the one titled "The Best Case Against Jesus", so I reviewed your evidence according to that, more so because some of it seems to be also against Jesus' existence, not only for a docetist Jesus.
Actually, I do not think a docetist Jesus is against a historical Jesus' existence, because a docetist Jesus is still described as having had a ministry on earth, and looked and felt like a real man and believed by eyewitnesses to be an earthly human, etc.
For me a docetist entity is one (a god) who transforms instantly as someone looking like an adult human, for a visit on earth, without going through birth and childhood.
I think that was created by gnostics who wanted Jesus to look more like a Greek god, or because going from baby status to adulthood was undignified for a god or/and originating from a normal birth was creating doubt about the divinity of Jesus.

What convinces you of the theory of a "docetic era" and when it began?

Marcion seems to be the first one. I do not see any candidate before him.

Cordially, Bernard

Post by **Peter Kirby** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:07 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:To Peter,
Bernard wrote:
I want to briefly comment on passages which are 1st century (according to my research) but not widely believed to have been interpolated and could be considered against Jesus' existence.
If I am not convinced by your attempts to show that these passages are not anti-docetic, should I then consider these to be "against Jesus' existence"?
That thread is a continuation of the one titled "The Best Case Against Jesus", so I reviewed your evidence according to that, more so because some of it seem to be also against Jesus' existence, not only for a docetist Jesus.
Actually, I do not think a docetist Jesus is against a historical Jesus' existence, because a docetist Jesus is still described as having had a ministry on earth, and looked and felt like a real man and believed by eyewitnesses to be an earthly human, etc.
For me a docetist entity is one (a god) who transforms instantly as someone looking like an adult human, for a visit on earth, without going through birth and childhood.
I think that was created by gnostics who wanted Jesus to look more like a Greek god, or because going from baby status to adulthood was undignified for a god or/and originating from a normal birth was creating doubt about the divinity of Jesus.

Fair enough. That is more or less the standard view.

Bernard Muller wrote:
What convinces you of the theory of a "docetic era" and when it began?
Marcion seems to be the first one. I do not see any candidate before him.

Nobody says that Marcion was the first one. Despite the relative earliness of Marcion, all the sources cited claim that Marcion inherited this belief. It is attributed to Julius Cassian or even to Simon Magus but not to Marcion. The sources seem very clear that this was a very early and widespread "error." What makes you think it originates from Marcion?

Bernard Muller · Post by **Bernard Muller** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:02 pm

to Peter,

Nobody says that Marcion was the first one. Despite the relative earliness of Marcion, all the sources cited claim that Marcion inherited this belief. It is attributed to Julius Cassian or even to Simon Magus but not to Marcion. The sources seem very clear that this was a very early and widespread "error." What makes you think it originates from Marcion?

About Simon Magus, you quoted:

Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer. I, 23 [describing the claims of Simon Magus, supposedly the first heretic]
As the angels governed this world badly because each angel coveted the principality for himself he came to improve matters, and was transfigured and rendered like unto the Virtues and Powers and Angels, so that he appeared amongst men as man though he was no man and was believed to have suffered in Judea though he had not suffered.

Actually, studying the textual context, I do not think "he" is about Jesus, but rather Simon Magus himself.
"This man [Simon Magus], then, was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him."] (Irenaeus of Lyons, Adv. Haer. I, 23, 1)
Besides the legendary meeting of Peter & John with Simon Magus in Samaria (Acts 8) there is nothing much about Christian stuff in Simon Magus teachings.
Except, "[Simon Magus] appeared among the Jews as the Son", and "he [Simon Magus] appeared amongst men as man though he [the Son] was no man and was believed to have suffered in Judea though he [the Son] had not suffered." seems to have been borrowed from Christian beliefs (under Claudius!), and where Simon Magus would pretend to have been Jesus. That's too indirect for me in order to consider him as an early Christian docetist but I see your point: "he [the Son] had not suffered." which is what a Christian docetist would write.

For Julius Cassian, I extracted that from this website (http://ecole.evansville.edu/articles/docetism.html):
Clement of Alexandria also knew of a group known as Docetists without explaining what they believed; he simply observes that their name derives from their doctrine (early third century; Stromateis VII.xvii). Clement did opine that the founder of docetism was Julius Cassian, but this assessment seems to be grounded in Cassian's belief that birth is an evil (Strom. III.xvii). Clement associates Cassian with [G] Marcion and Valentinus on this basis; but historians of dogma usually do not regard the claim that birth is evil as distinctively docetic.

Cordially, Bernard

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