Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Sheshbazzar
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Sheshbazzar »

John T wrote:
I think this thread have proven the simple fact that Jesus really existed based on ancient writings and oral traditions (Talmud).
You may think that John, but this thread has in no wise 'proven' any such thing.

That Jews responded to the unverifiable Jesus myths, and the Deicide guilt accusations being leveled at them, by rejecting that hooey, and fashioning replies to the various Christian claims, in no way makes 'Jesus' into a historical person.
None of these Jews writing the Talmud had ever met any 'Jesus of Nazareth', they simply got suckered into playing on the Christian myths playing field by making up their own (unflattering) variations on the Jesus tale.
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John T
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by John T »

There is not much point in continuing this thread.
The preponderance of the evidence points to a historical Jesus and the opposing side has nothing but blurred shadows on a cave wall.

Gary Habermas was correct in saying: 70-85% of those who oppose do so out of emotion and not based on any verifiable evidence or rational reasoning.

http://youtu.be/ay_Db4RwZ_M

So, the only question left is, why don't the mythicists/atheists attack Islam or Buddha using the same standards? :confusedsmiley:

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

John T wrote:That is unless you are trying to say the Gnostics were the first to say Jesus never, ever existed. If so, please provide your source.
That is precisely what I said, a sample source provided, somewhere above.

I am probably on John T's ignorance list.





LC
Last edited by Leucius Charinus on Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Sheshbazzar
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Sheshbazzar »

John T wrote:There is not much point in continuing this thread.
The preponderance of the evidence points to a historical Jesus and the opposing side has nothing but blurred shadows on a cave wall.

Gary Habermas was correct in saying: 70-85% of those who oppose do so out of emotion and not based on any verifiable evidence or rational reasoning.

http://youtu.be/ay_Db4RwZ_M

So, the only question left is, why don't the mythicists/atheists attack Islam or Buddha using the same standards? :confusedsmiley:

John T


There is no point in continuing this thread.
As the preponderance of evidence points to an inhuman and mythical Jesus. One that not even one writer on the subject ever saw or met.
A mythical creature pasted together from snippets of Scripture and themes and details plagiarized from older rulers and pagan sources.
Not a god. not a man. Just a sick joke used as tool to incite superstitious and ignorant mobs, and to justify and rationalize bigotry, theft, and murders beyond numbering. "In Jesus precious name."

Sheshbazzar
Sheshbazzar
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Sheshbazzar »

John T wrote:So, the only question left is, why don't the mythicists/atheists attack Islam or Buddha using the same standards? :confusedsmiley:

John T
We do.
But perhaps you haven't noticed, that this Forum is the "Christian Texts and History" Forum.
The myths and faults of Islam and of Buddhism are not subjects of discussion in this Forum.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Stephan Huller »

John T
I think this thread have proven the simple fact that Jesus really existed based on ancient writings and oral traditions (Talmud).
Either you are a liar or an idiot to base any claim of historical certainty on the Jewish writings. Do you also claim that Nero was a proselyte (Giṭ. 56a) or that R Meir (nee Mayesha) was his descendant? Come on this is laughable. I can bring ten of the stupidest historical inaccuracies out of the Talmud and so too the Samaritan writings. These books are filled with a lot of half-truths, gossip and sheer nonsense. Titus being killed by a gnat. Titus making love with Berenice on the Torah in the Holy of Holies. Where does this end?

If you were to tweak your title (I am not one who argues for outright 'ahistoricity') I would argue Mark was the first writer to infer that Jesus was supernatural and thus did not have 'being' in the conventional sense. Close enough?
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Blood
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Blood »

"Gary Habermas was correct in saying: 70-85% of those who oppose do so out of emotion and not based on any verifiable evidence or rational reasoning."

LOL, as if defenders of the One True Faith were motivated by anything BUT emotion and wishful thinking.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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John T
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by John T »

John T wrote:That is unless you are trying to say the Gnostics were the first to say Jesus never, ever existed. If so, please provide your source....That is precisely what I said, a sample source provided, somewhere above.

I am probably on John T's ignorance list.

Leucius Charinus,

@Leucius Charinus,

Please accept my apology.

I do not put anyone on the ignore list nor do I flag anyone. Instead, I will read the first sentence or two to see if it is on topic. If it is vague, lengthy or self-promoting, I will skim the post and then focus on the conclusion to see if it warrants a full reading. If the poster has an ongoing history for being a smart-aleck and starts off that way or leads with an ad hominem attack then I chalk them off as a lost cause (you guys know who you are). Now don't get me wrong, I do enjoy banter and can take a joke at my expense but you already know by now the ones that have nothing to offer but ridicule for those who have a differing opinion. For an example, just wait, for they will be here shortly hurling the accusation that I do the very same thing. They do so because they can't stand ever being proven wrong, on anything, without taking personal offense, such is the way of narcissistic arrogance. Anyway, I then move on and scan the next reply to see if that person is willing to stick to the topic.

Please be assured that I do not consider you Leucius Charinus a smart-aleck and again I apologize for missing your point. So, if you would please, link the post or cut&paste the pertinent parts so I can review it.

Thanks in advance.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Stephan Huller
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Stephan Huller »

While we are at it why don't we cite the 'solid history' of the Jewish people provided by the Talmud for the first century to confirm John T's 'confidence' in its inherent reliability. Hold on to your hats folks we have a wholly different understanding of how the Jewish War played out and the events which led to the destruction of the temple. Here is the long section in Gittin which explains the following lines in the Mishnah:
MISHNAH. THERE WAS NO SICARICON11 IN JUDEA FOR THOSE KILLED IN WAR.12 AS FROM [THE TERMINATION OF] THE SLAUGHTER OF THE WAR13 THERE HAS BEEN SICARICON THERE. HOW DOES THIS RULE APPLY? IF A MAN BUYS A FIELD FROM THE SICARICON AND THEN BUYS IT AGAIN FROM THE ORIGINAL OWNER, HIS PURCHASE IS VOID,14 BUT IF HE BUYS IT FIRST FROM THE ORIGINAL OWNER AND THEN FROM THE SICARICON IT IS VALID. IF A MAN BUYS [A PIECE OF A MARRIED WOMAN'S PROPERTY]15 FROM THE HUSBAND AND THEN BUYS IT AGAIN FROM THE WIFE, THE PURCHASE IS VOID,16 BUT IF HE BUYS IT FIRST FROM THE WIFE AND THEN FROM THE HUSBAND IT IS VALID. THIS WAS [THE RULING] OF THE FIRST MISHNAH.17 THE SUCCEEDING BETH DIN,18 HOWEVER, LAID DOWN THAT IF A MAN BUYS PROPERTY FROM THE SICARICON HE HAD TO GIVE THE ORIGINAL OWNER A QUARTER [OF THE VALUE].19 TH19 S,20 HOWEVER, IS ONLY THE CASE WHEN THE ORIGINAL OWNER IS NOT IN A POSITION TO BUY IT HIMSELF, BUT IF HE IS HE HAS THE RIGHT OF PRE-EMPTION. RABBI ASSEMBLED A BETH DIN AND THEY DECIDED BY VOTE THAT IF THE PROPERTY HAD BEEN IN THE HANDS OF THE SICARICON TWELVE MONTHS, WHOSOEVER FIRST PURCHASED IT ACQUIRED THE TITLE, BUT HE HAD TO GIVE A QUARTER [OF THE PRICE] TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER.

GEMARA. If there was no sicaricon for those killed in the war is it possible that there should have been after the termination of the war? — Rab Judah said: It means that the rule of sicaricon was not applied.21 For R. Assi has stated: They [the Roman Government] issued three successive decrees. The first was that whoever did not kill [a Jew on finding him] should himself be put to death. The second was that whoever killed [a Jew] should pay four zuz.22 The last was that whoever killed a Jew should himself be put to death.23 Hence in the first two [periods], [the Jew], being in danger of his life, would determine to transfer his property24 [to the sicaricon] but in the last [period] he would say to himself, Let him take it today; tomorrow I will sue him for it.25

R. Johanan said: What is illustrative of the verse, Happy is the man that feareth alway, but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief?26 The destruction of Jerusalem came through a Kamza and a Bar Kamza;27 the destruction of Tur Malka28 came through a cock and a hen; the destruction of Bethar came through the shaft of a leather. The destruction of Jerusalem came through a Kamza and a Bar Kamza in this way. A certain man had a friend Kamza and an enemy Bar Kamza. He once made a party and said to his servant, Go and bring Kamza. The man went and brought Bar Kamza. When the man [who gave the party] found him there he said, See, you tell tales about me; what are you doing here? Get out. Said the other: Since I am here, let me stay, and I will pay you for whatever I eat and drink.

He said, I won't. Then let me give you half the cost of the party. No, said the other. Then let me pay for the whole party. He still said, No, and he took him by the hand and put him out. Said the other, Since the Rabbis were sitting there and did not stop him, this shows that they agreed with him. I will go and inform against then, to the Government. He went and said to the Emperor, The Jews are rebelling against you. He said, How can I tell? He said to him: Send them an offering and see whether they will offer it [on the altar]. So he sent with him a fine calf.1 While on the way he made a blemish on its upper lip, or as some say on the white of its eye, in a place where we [Jews] count it a blemish but they do not. The Rabbis were inclined to offer it in order not to offend the Government. Said R. Zechariah b. Abkulas to them: People will say that blemished animals are offered on the altar. They then proposed to kill Bar Kamza so that he should not go and inform against them, but R. Zechariah b. Abkulas said to them, Is one who makes a blemish on consecrated animals to be put to death? R. Johanan thereupon remarked: Through the scrupulousness2 of R. Zechariah b. Abkulas our House has been destroyed, our Temple burnt and we ourselves exiled from our land.3

He [the Emperor] sent against them Nero the Caesar.4 As he was coming he shot an arrow towards the east, and it fell in Jerusalem. He then shot one towards the west, and it again fell in Jerusalem. He shot towards all four points of the compass, and each time it fell in Jerusalem. He said to a certain boy: Repeat to me [the last] verse of Scripture you have learnt. He said: And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel.5 He said: The Holy One, blessed be He, desires to lay waste his House and to lay the blame on me.6 So he ran away and became a proselyte, and R. Meir was descended from him.7

He then sent against them Vespasian the Caesar8 who came and besieged Jerusalem for three years. There were in it three men of great wealth, Nakdimon b. Gorion, Ben Kalba Shabua' and Ben Zizith Hakeseth. Nakdimon b. Gorion was so called because the sun continued shining for his sake.9 Ben Kalba Shabua 'was so called because one would go into his house hungry as a dog [keleb] and come out full [sabea']. Ben Zizith Hakeseth was so called because his fringes [zizith] used to trail on cushions [keseth]. Others say he derived the name from the fact that his seat [kise] was among those of the nobility of Rome. One of these said to the people of Jerusalem, I will keep them in wheat and barley. A second said, I will keep them in wine, oil and salt. The third said, I will keep them in wood. The Rabbis considered the offer of wood the most generous,10 since R. Hisda used to hand all his keys to his servant save that of the wood, for R. Hisda used to say, A storehouse of wheat requires sixty stores of wood [for fuel]. These men were in a position to keep the city for twenty-one years.

The biryoni11 were then in the city. The Rabbis said to them: Let us go out and make peace with them [the Romans]. They would not let them, but on the contrary said, Let us go out and fight them. The Rabbis said: You will not succeed. They then rose up and burnt the stores of wheat and barley so that a famine ensued. Martha the daughter of Boethius was one of the richest women in Jerusalem. She sent her man-servant out saying, Go and bring me some fine flour. By the time he went it was sold out. He came and told her, There is no fine flour, but there is white [flour]. She then said to him, Go and bring me some. By the time he went he found the white flour sold out. He came and told her, There is no white flour but there is dark flour. She said to him, Go and bring me some. By the time he went it was sold out. He returned and said to her, There is no dark flour, but there is barley flour. She said, Go and bring me some. By the time he went this was also sold out. She had taken off her shoes, but she said, I will go out and see if I can find anything to eat. Some dung stuck to her foot and she died.12 Rabban Johanan b. Zakkai applied to her the verse, The tender and delicate woman among you which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground.13 Some report that she ate a fig left by R. Zadok, and became sick and died. For R. Zadok observed fasts for forty years in order that Jerusalem might not be destroyed, [and he became so thin that] when he ate anything the food could be seen [as it passed through his throat.] When he wanted to restore himself, they used to bring him a fig, and he used to suck the juice and throw the rest away. When Martha was about to die, she brought out all her gold and silver and threw it in the street, saying, What is the good of this to me, thus giving effect to the verse, They shall cast their silver in the streets.14

Abba Sikra15 the head of the biryoni in Jerusalem was the son of the sister of Rabban Johanan b. Zakkai. [The latter] sent to him saying, Come to visit me privately. When he came he said to him, How long are you going to carry on in this way and kill all the people with starvation? He replied: What can I do? If I say a word to them, they will kill me. He said: Devise some plan for me to escape. Perhaps I shall be able to save a little. He said to him: Pretend to be ill, and let everyone come to inquire about you. Bring something evil smelling and put it by you so that they will say you are dead. Let then your disciples get under your bed, but no others, so that they shall not notice that you are still light, since they know that a living being is lighter than a corpse. He did so, and R. Eliezer went under the bier from one side and R. Joshua from the other. When they reached the door, some men wanted to put a lance through the bier. He said to them: Shall [the Romans] say. They have pierced their Master? They wanted to give it a push. He said to them: Shall they say that they pushed their Master? They opened a town gate for him and he got out.

When he reached the Romans16 he said, Peace to you, O king, peace to you, O king. He [Vespasian] said: Your life is forfeit on two counts, one because I am not a king and you call me king, and again, if I am a king, why did you not come to me before now? He replied: As for your saying that you are not a king, in truth you are a king, since if you were not a king Jerusalem would not be delivered into your hand, as it is written, And Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.1 'Mighty one' [is an epithet] applied only to a king, as it is written, And their mighty one shall be of themselves2 etc.; and Lebanon refers to the Sanctuary, as it says, This goodly mountain and Lebanon.3 As for your question, why if you are a king, I did not come to you till now, the answer is that the biryoni among us did not let me. He said to him; If there is a jar of honey round which a serpent is wound, would they not break the jar to get rid of the serpent?4 He could give no answer. R. Joseph, or as some say R. Akiba, applied to him the verse, [God] turneth wise men backward and maketh their knowledge foolish.5 He ought to have said to him: We take a pair of tongs and grip the snake and kill it, and leave the jar intact.6

At this point a messenger came to him from Rome saying, Up, for the Emperor is dead, and the notables of Rome have decided to make you head [of the State]. He had just finished putting on one boot. When he tried to put on the other he could not. He tried to take off the first but it would not come off. He said: What is the meaning of this? R. Johanan said to him: Do not worry: the good news has done it, as it says, Good tidings make the bone fat.7 What is the remedy? Let someone whom you dislike come and pass before you, as it is written, A broken spirit drieth up the bones.8 He did so, and the boot went on. He said to him: Seeing that you are so wise, why did you not come to me till now? He said: Have I not told you? — He retorted: I too have told you.

He said; I am now going, and will send someone to take my place. You can, however, make a request of me and I will grant it. He said to him: Give me Jabneh and its Wise Men,9 and the family chain of Rabban Gamaliel,10 and physicians to heal R. Zadok. R. Joseph, or some say R. Akiba, applied to him the verse, '[God] turneth wise men backward and maketh their knowledge foolish'. He ought to have said to him; Let them [the Jews] off this time. He, however, thought that so much he would not grant, and so even a little would not be saved.
How did the physicians heal R. Zadok? The first day they let him drink water in which bran had been soaked; on the next day water in which there had been coarse meal;11 on the next day water in which there had been flour, so that his stomach expanded little by little.

Vespasian sent Titus who said, Where is their God, the rock in whom they trusted?12 This was the wicked Titus who blasphemed and insulted Heaven. What did he do? He took a harlot by the hand and entered the Holy of Holies and spread out a scroll of the Law and committed a sin on it. He then took a sword and slashed the curtain. Miraculously blood spurted out, and he thought that he had slain himself,13 as it says, Thine adversaries have roared in the midst of thine assembly, they have set up their ensigns for signs.14 Abba Hanan said: Who is a mighty one like unto thee, O Jah?15 Who is like Thee, mighty in self-restraint,16 that Thou didst hear the blaspheming and insults of that wicked man and keep silent? In the school of R. Ishmael it was taught; Who is like thee among the gods [elim]?17 Who is like thee among the dumb ones [illemim]. Titus further took the curtain and shaped it like a basket and brought all the vessels of the Sanctuary and put them in it, and then put them on board ship to go and triumph with them in his city, as it says, And withal I saw the wicked buried, and they that come to the grave and they that had done right went away from the holy place and were forgotten in the city.18 Read not keburim [buried] but kebuzim [collected]; read not veyishtakehu [and were forgotten] but veyishtabehu [and triumphed]. Some say that keburim [can be retained], because even things that were buried were disclosed to them. A gale sprang up at sea which threatened to wreck him. He said: Apparently the power of the God of these people is only over water. When Pharaoh came He drowned him in water, when Sisera came He drowned him in water. He is also trying to drown me in water. If he is really mighty, let him come up on the dry land and fight with me. A voice went forth from heaven saying; Sinner, son of sinner, descendant of Esau the sinner, I have a tiny creature in my world called a gnat. (Why is it called a tiny creature? Because it has an orifice for taking in but not for excreting.) Go up on the dry land and make war with it. When he landed the gnat came and entered his nose, and it knocked against his brain for seven years. One day as he was passing a blacksmith's it heard the noise of the hammer and stopped. He said; I see there is a remedy. So every day they brought a blacksmith who hammered before him. If he was a non-Jew they gave him four zuz, if he was a Jew they said, It is enough that you see the suffering of your enemy. This went on for thirty days, but then the creature got used to it.19 It has been taught: R. Phineas b. 'Aruba said; I was in company with the notables of Rome, and when he died they split open his skull and found there something like a sparrow two sela's in weight. A Tanna taught; Like a young dove two pounds in weight. Abaye said; We have it on record that its beak was of brass and its claws of iron. When he died he said: Burn me and scatter my ashes over the seven seas so that the God of the Jews should not find me and bring me to trial.

Onkelos son of Kolonikos20 was the son of Titus's sister. He had a mind to convert himself to Judaism. He went and raised Titus from the dead by magical arts, and asked him; 'Who is most in repute in the [other] world? He replied: Israel. What then, he said, about joining them? He said: Their observances are burdensome and you will not be able to carry them out. Go and attack them in that world and you will be at the top as it is written, Her adversaries are become the head21 etc.; whoever harasses Israel becomes head. He asked him: What is your punishment [in the other world]? He replied: What I decreed for myself. Every day my ashes are collected and sentence is passed on me and I am burnt and my ashes are scattered over the seven seas. He then went and raised Balaam by incantations. He asked him: Who is in repute in the other world? He replied: Israel. What then, he said, about joining them? He replied: Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.1 He then asked: What is your punishment? He replied: With boiling hot semen.2 He then went and raised by incantations the sinners of Israel.3 He asked them: Who is in repute in the other world? They replied: Israel. What about joining them? They replied: Seek their welfare, seek not their harm. Whoever touches them touches the apple of his eye. He said: What is your punishment? They replied: With boiling hot excrement, since a Master has said: Whoever mocks at the words of the Sages is punished with boiling hot excrement. Observe the difference between the sinners of Israel and the prophets of the other nations who worship idols. It has been taught: Note from this incident how serious a thing it is to put a man to shame, for God espoused the cause of Bar Kamza and destroyed His House and burnt His Temple. 'Through a cock and a hen Tur Malka was destroyed'. How? — It was the custom that when a bride and bridegroom were being escorted a cock and a hen were carried before them, as if to say, Be fruitful and multiply like fowls. One day a band of Roman soldiers passed by and took the animals from them, so the Jews fell on them and beat them. So they went and reported to the Emperor that the Jews were rebelling, and he marched against them. There came against them one Bar Daroma4 who was able to jump a mile, and slaughtered them. The Emperor took his crown and placed it on the ground, saying, Sovereign of all the world, may it please thee not to deliver me and my kingdom into the hands of one man. Bar Daroma was tripped up by his own utterance, as he said, Hast not thou, O God, cast us off and thou goest not forth, O God, with our hosts.5 But David also said thus? — David wondered if it could be so. He went into a privy and a snake came, and he dropped his gut [from fright] and died. The Emperor said: Since a miracle has been wrought for me, I will let them off this time. So he left them alone and went away. They began to dance about and eat and drink and they lit so many lamps that the impress of a seal could be discerned by their light a mile away from the place. Said the Emperor; Are the Jews making merry over me? And he again invaded them. R. Assi said; Three hundred thousand men with drawn swords went in to Tur Malka, and slaughtered for three days and three nights, while on the other side dancing and feasting was going on, and one did not know about the other.

The Lord hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob and hath not pitied.6 When Rabin came he said in the name of R. Johanan; These are the sixty thousand myriads of cities which King Jannai had in the King's Mountain.7 For R. Judah said in the name of R. Assi: King Jannai had sixty myriads of cities in the King's Mountain, and in each of them was a population as large as that of the Exodus, save in three of them which had double as many. These were Kefar Bish,8 Kefar Shihlayim,9 and Kefar Dikraya.10 [The first was called] Kefar Bish [evil village] because they never gave hospitality to visitors. The second was called Kefar Shihlayim because they made their living from shihlayim [watercress]. Kefar Dikraya [village of males] according to R. Johanan, was so called because women used to bear males first and finally a girl and then no more. 'Ulla said: I have seen that place, and it would not hold even sixty myriads of reeds. A certain Min said to R. Hanina: You tell a lot of lies.11 He replied: Palestine is called 'land of the deer'.12 Just as the skin of the hind cannot hold its flesh,13 so the Land of Israel when it is inhabited can find room but when it is not inhabited it contracts.

Once when R. Manyumi b. Helkiah and R. Helkiah b. Tobiah and R. Huna b. Hiyya were sitting together they said: If anyone knows anything about Kefar Sekania of Egypt,14 let him say. One of them thereupon said; Once a betrothed couple [from there] were carried off by heathens who married them to one another. The woman said: I beg of you not to touch me, as I have no Kethubah15 from you. So he did not touch her till his dying day. When he died, she said: Mourn for this man who has kept his passions in check more than Joseph, because Joseph was exposed to temptation only a short time, but this man every day. Joseph was not in one bed with the woman but this man was; in Joseph's case she was not his wife, but here she was. The next then began and said: On one occasion forty bushels [of coin] were selling for a denar, and the number went down one, and they investigated and found that a man and his son had had intercourse with a betrothed maiden on the Day of Atonement, so they brought them to the Beth din and they stoned them and the original price was restored. The third then began and said: There was a man who wanted to divorce his wife, but hesitated because she had a big marriage settlement. He accordingly invited his friends16 and gave them a good feast and made them drunk and put them all in one bed. He then brought the white of an egg and scattered it among them and brought witnesses17 and appealed to the Beth din. There was a certain elder there of the disciples of Shammai the Elder, named Baba b. Buta, who said: This is what I have been taught by Shammai the Elder, that the white of an egg contracts when brought near the fire, but semen becomes faint from the fire. They tested it and found that it was so, and they brought the man to the Beth din and flogged him and made him pay her Kethubah. Said Abaye to R. Joseph: Since they were so virtuous, why were they punished? — He replied: Because they did not mourn for Jerusalem, as it is written; Rejoice ye with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all ye that love her, rejoice for joy with her all ye that mourn over her.18 'Through the shaft of a litter Bethar19 was destroyed.' It was the custom when a boy was born to plant a cedar tree and when a girl was born to plant a pine tree, and when they married, the tree was cut down and a canopy made of the branches. One day the daughter of the Emperor was passing when the shaft of her litter broke, so they lopped some branches off a cedar tree and brought it to her. The Jews thereupon fell upon them and beat them. They reported to the Emperor that the Jews were rebelling, and he marched against them.

He hath cut off in fierce anger all the horn of Israel.20 R. Zera said in the name of R. Abbahu who quoted R. Johanan: These are the eighty [thousand]21 battle trumpets which assembled in the city of Bethar when it was taken and men, women and children were slain in it until their blood ran into the great sea. Do you think this was near? It was a whole mil22 away. It has been taught: R. Eleazar the Great said: There are two streams in the valley of Yadaim,23 one running in one direction and one in another, and the Sages estimated that [at that time] they ran with two parts water to one of blood. In a Baraitha it has been taught: For seven years the Gentiles fertilised24 their vineyards with the blood of Israel without using manure. R. Hiya b. Abin said in the name of R. Joshua b. Korhah: An old man from the inhabitants of Jerusalem told me that in this valley Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard killed two hundred and eleven myriads,1 and in Jerusalem he killed ninety-four myriads on one stone, until their blood went and joined that of Zechariah,2 to fulfil the words, Blood toucheth blood.3 He noticed the blood of Zechariah bubbling up warm, and asked what it was. They said: It is the blood of the sacrifices which has been poured there. He had some blood brought, but it was different from the other. He then said to them: If you tell me [the truth], well and good, but if not, I will tear your flesh with combs of iron. They said: What can we say to you? There was a prophet among us who used to reprove us for our irreligion, and we rose up against him and killed him, and for many years his blood has not rested. He said to them: I will appease him. He brought the great Sanhedrin4 and the small Sanhedrin5 and killed them over him, but the blood did not cease. He then slaughtered young men and women, but the blood did not cease. He brought school-children and slaughtered them over it, but the blood did not cease. So he said; Zechariah, Zechariah. I have slain the best of them; do you want me to destroy them all? When he said this to him, it stopped. Straightway Nebuzaradan felt remorse. He said to himself: If such is the penalty for slaying one soul, what will happen to me who have slain such multitudes? So he fled away, and sent a deed to his house disposing of his effects and became a convert. A Tanna taught: Naaman was a resident alien;6 Nebuzaradan was a righteous proselyte;7 descendants of Haman learnt the Torah in Benai Berak; descendants of Sisera taught children in Jerusalem; descendants of Sennacherib gave public expositions of the Torah. Who were these? Shemaya and Abtalion.8 [Nebuzaradan fulfilled] what is written, I have set her blood upon the bare rock that it should not be covered.9
The voice is the voice of Jacob and the hands are the hands of Esau:10 'the voice' here refers to [the cry caused by] the Emperor Hadrian11 who killed in Alexandria of Egypt sixty myriads on sixty myriads, twice as many as went forth from Egypt. 'The voice of Jacob': this is the cry caused by the Emperor Vespasian12 who killed in the city of Bethar four hundred thousand myriads, or as some say, four thousand myriads. 'The hands are the hands of Esau:' this is the Government of Rome which has destroyed our House and burnt our Temple and driven us out of our land. Another explanation is [as follows]: 'The voice is the voice of Jacob:' no prayer is effective unless the seed of Jacob has a part in it. 'The hands are the hands of Esau:' no war is successful unless the seed of Esau has a share in it. This is what R. Eleazar said:13 Thou shalt be hid from the scourge of the tongue;14 this means, thou shalt be protected from the heated contests15 of the tongue.

Rab Judah said in the name of Rab: What is meant by the verse, By the rivers of Babylon there we sat down, yea, we wept when we remembered Zion?16 This indicates that the Holy One, blessed be He, showed David the destruction both of the first Temple and of the second Temple. Of the first Temple, as it is written, 'By the rivers of Babylon there we sat, yea we wept'; of the second Temple, as it is written, Remember, O Lord, against the children of Edom17 the day of Jerusalem, who said, rase it, rase it, even unto the foundation thereof.18
Rab Judah said in the name of Samuel, or it may be R. Ammi, or as some say it was taught in a Baraitha; On one occasion four hundred boys and girls were carried off for immoral purposes. They divined what they were wanted for and said to themselves, If we drown in the sea we shall attain the life of the future world. The eldest among them expounded the verse, The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring again from the depths of the sea.19 'I will bring again from Bashan,' from between the lions' teeth.20 'I will bring again from the depths of the sea,' those who drown in the sea. When the girls heard this they all leaped into the sea. The boys then drew the moral for themselves, saying, If these for whom this is natural act so, shall not we, for whom it is unnatural? They also leaped into the sea. Of them the text says, Yea, for thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.21 Rab Judah, however, said that this refers to the woman and her seven sons.22 They brought the first before the Emperor and said to him, Serve the idol. He said to them: It is written in the Law, I am the Lord thy God.23 So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the second before the Emperor and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Thou shalt have no other gods before me.24 So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the next and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, He that sacrifices unto the gods, save unto the Lord only, shall be utterly destroyed.25 So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the next before the Emperor saying, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Thou shalt not bow down to any other god.26 So they led him away and killed him. They then brought another and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.27 So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the next and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied; It is written in the Torah, Know therefore this day and lay it to thine heart that the Lord He is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is none else.28 So they led him away and killed him. They brought the next and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Thou hast avouched the Lord this day … and the Lord hath avouched thee this day;29 we have long ago sworn to the Holy One, blessed be He, that we will not exchange Him for any other god, and He also has sworn to us that He will not change us for any other people. The Emperor said: I will throw down my seal before you and you can stoop down and pick it up,30 so that they will say of you that you have conformed to the desire31 of the king. He replied; Fie on thee, Caesar, fie on thee, Caesar; if thine own honour is so important, how much more the honour of the Holy One, blessed be He! They were leading him away to kill him when his mother said: Give him to me that I may kiss him a little. She said to him: My son, go and say to your father Abraham, Thou didst bind one [son to the] altar, but I have bound seven altars. Then she also went up on to a roof and threw herself down and was killed. A voice thereupon came forth from heaven saying, A joyful mother of children.32
R. Joshua b. Levi said: [The verse, 'Yea, for thy sake we are killed all the day long'] can be applied to circumcision, which has been appointed for the eighth [day]. R. Simeon b. Lakish said: It can be applied to the students of the Torah who demonstrate the rules of shechitah on themselves; for Raba said: A man can practise anything on himself except shechitah,33 and something else. R. Nahman b. Isaac said that it can be applied to the students who kill themselves for the words of the Torah, in accordance with the saying of R. Simeon b. Lakish; for R. Simeon b. Lakish said: The words of the Torah abide only with one who kills himself for them, as it says, This is the Torah, when a man shall die in the tent etc.34
Rabbah b. Bar Hanah said in the name of R. Johanan: Forty se'ahs of phylactery boxes1 were found on the heads of the victims of Bethar. R. Jannai son of R. Ishmael said there were three chests each containing forty se'ahs. In a Baraitha it was taught: Forty chests each of three se'ahs. There is, however, no contradiction; the one was referring to the phylactery of the head, the other to that of the arm.2

R. Assi said; Four kabs of brain were found on one stone. 'Ulla said: Nine kabs. R. Kahana — or some say Shila b. Mari — said: Where do we find this in the Scripture? [In the verse], O daughter of Babylon that art to be destroyed, happy shall he be that rewardeth thee … happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock.3
[It is written]: The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold.4 What is meant by 'comparable to fine gold'? Shall I say it means that they were covered with gold? [This can hardly be] seeing that in the school of R. Shila it was stated that two state weights of fine gold came down into the world, one of which went to Rome and the other to the rest of the world! No: what it means is that they used to eclipse fine gold with their beauty. Before that the notables of the Romans used to keep an amulet set in a ring in front of them when they had sexual intercourse, but now they brought Israelites and tied them to the foot of the bed. One man asked another: Where is that written [in the Scripture]? He replied: Also every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law.5 Said the other: How far am I from that place? — He replied: A little,6 a page and a half. Said the other: If I had got so far, I should not have wanted you.

Rab Judah reported Samuel as saying in the name of Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel; What is signified by the verse, Mine eye affecteth my soul, because of all the daughters of my city?7 There were four hundred synagogues in the city of Bethar, and in every one were four hundred teachers of children, and each one had under him four hundred pupils,8 and when the enemy entered there they pierced them with their staves, and when the enemy prevailed and captured them, they wrapped them in their scrolls and burnt them with fire.
Our Rabbis have taught: R. Joshua b. Hananiah once happened to go to the great city of Rome,9 and he was told there that there was in the prison a child with beautiful eyes and face and curly locks.10 He went and stood at the doorway of the prison and said, Who gave Jacob for a spoil and Israel to the robbers?11 The child answered, Is it not the Lord, He against whom we have sinned and in whose ways they would not walk, neither were they obedient unto his law.12 He said: I feel sure that this one will be a teacher in Israel. I swear that I will not budge from here before I ransom him, whatever price may be demanded. It is reported that he did not leave the spot before he had ransomed him at a high figure, nor did many days pass before he became a teacher in Israel. Who was he? — He was R. Ishmael b. Elisha.

Rab Judah said in the name of Rab: It is related that the son and the daughter of R. Ishmael b. Elisha were carried off [and sold to] two masters. Some time after the two met together, and one said, I have a slave the most beautiful in the world. The other said, I have a female slave the most beautiful in the world. They said: Let us marry them to one another and share the children. They put them in the same room. The boy sat in one corner and the girl in another. He said: I am a priest descended from high priests, and shall I marry a bondwoman? She said: I am a priestess descended from high priests, and shall I be married to a slave? So they passed all the night in tears. When the day dawned they recognised one another and fell on one another's necks and bemoaned themselves with tears until their souls departed. For them Jeremiah utters lamentation, For these I am weeping, mine eye, mine eye drops water.13
Resh Lakish said: It is related of a certain woman named Zafenath bath Peniel (she was called Zafenath because all gazed [zofin] at her beauty, and the daughter of Peniel because she was the daughter of the high priest who ministered in the inner shrine)14 that a brigand abused her a whole night. In the morning he put seven wraps round her and took her out to sell her. A certain man who was exceptionally ugly came and said: Show me her beauty. He said: Fool, if you want to buy her buy, for there is no other so beautiful in all the world. He said to him: All the same [show her to me]. He took seven wraps off her, and she herself tore off the seventh and rolled in the dust, saying, Sovereign of the universe, if Thou hast not pity on us why hast thou not pity on the sanctity of Thy Name? For her Jeremiah utters lamentation, saying, O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth and wallow thyself in ashes; make thee mourning as for an only son, for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.15 It does not say upon thee,' but 'upon us:' the spoiler is come, if one may say so, upon Me and upon thee.
Rab Judah said in the name of Rab: 'What is signified by the verse, And they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage?16 A certain man once conceived a desire for the wife of his master, he being a carpenter's apprentice. Once his master wanted to borrow some money from him. He said to him: Send your wife to me and I will lend her the money. So he sent his wife to him, and she stayed three days with him. He then went to him before her. Where is my wife whom I sent to you? he asked. He replied: I sent her away at once, but I heard that the youngsters played with her on the road. What shall I do? he said. If you listen to my advice, he replied, divorce her. But, he said, she has a large marriage settlement. Said the other: I will lend you money to give her for her Kethubah. So he went and divorced her and the other went and married her. When the time for payment arrived and he was not able to pay him, he said: Come and work off your debt with me. So they used to sit and eat and drink while he waited on them, and tears used to fall from his eyes and drop into their cups. From that hour the doom was sealed; some, however, say that it was for two wicks in one light


All this history! All this 'accurate information' about persons and things which happened with such certainty! (Where is that rolling on the floor laughing icon when you need it). If I have time I will add the Jesus narrative edited out of the Soncino edition which again verifies that 'Jesus was a real person' ha haha ha ha
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Who was the first person to claim Jesus never exsisted?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Stephan Huller wrote:And then you can go one step further - Origen's observation on Pilate's 'amazement' that Jesus died so quickly on the cross. The expectation was that crucifixion would be a lingering long affair. Jesus was basically put up, everyone leaves and then 'wow' he's appears dead. Something was wrong here, by implication. Pilate was surprised, Origen, said because something unusual occurred. Origen says divine intervention was at work in the episode. It was miraculous even supernatural. If the empty tomb immediately followed in the original gospel this entire narrative is 'supernatural.'
MrMacSon wrote:Origen's commentary in the mid 2nd C? about an event that happened 200yrs previously?
MrMacSon wrote:Stephan, I was seeking to clarify the point you were making ie. clarifying that Origen could not make a direct 'observation' on Pilate b/c 'observation' implies Origen was there to observe.
Clearly there is some confusion.

Mark 15:44. Pilate was surprised to hear that he should have already died. And summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead.

This is unique to the Gospel of Mark. Neither the Gospel of Matthew, of Luke, of Peter, or of John have it.

There is only an echo in John.

John 19:32-33. So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

Now there is even greater confusion when it comes to the patristic citations. Simply put, I can't find such an exact reference in Origen to Mark 15:44, and I wonder whether he has joined the memory of a reference in Origen to John 19:32-33 with that of Mark 15:44.

Using http://www.biblindex.mom.fr/ reveals only this...

Regarding Mark 15:44:

John Chrysostom, Commentary on the Gospel of Mathew, 88 [MIGNE J.-P., Sancti Joannis Chrysostomi Commentarius in sanctum Matthaeum evangelistam, PG 57 et 58 (1862). p.776, l.31]

Regarding John 19:33, we get a bigger dump:
CPG1450 - CPL86

220 - 403 (9 pole(s))

Africa (1 ancient author(s))

Lactantius (2 work(s))
Lactantius
Diuinae Institutiones (1)
Date: ca.304 - ca.311
Genre: -
Theme: Apologetics
Clavis: 85
Biblio:
BRANDT S., CSEL 19 (1890), 1-672.
4 26 § 32 (p.382, l.14) BP2
Epitome Diuinarum Institutionum (1)
Date: ca.314 - ca.321
Genre: -
Theme: Apologetics
Clavis: 86
Biblio:
46 § 3 (p.724, l.15) BP2
Alexandria (2 ancient author(s))

Athanasius Alexandrinus (1 work(s))
Athanasius
Alexandrinus
Oratio de incarnatione Verbi (2nde �d.) (1)
Date: ca.335 - ca.337
Genre: -
Theme: Christology
Clavis: 2091
Biblio:
KANNENGIESSER Ch., SC 199 (1973).
24 § 4 (p.354, l.31) BPH
Origenes (3 work(s))
Origenes
Commentarii in Iohannem (2)
Date: ca.231 - ca.248
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1453
Biblio:
PREUSCHEN E., GCS 10 (1903), 3-480 ; 562-563.
19 § 102 (p.316, l.25) BP3
19 § 116 (p.319, l.12) BP3
Commentarii in Matthaeum, libri XII-XIII (lat.) (1)
Date: ca.248 - ca.249
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1450
Biblio:
KLOSTERMANN E., BENZ E., GCS 38 (1933).
140 (p.292, l.6 - <) BP3
Contra Celsum (1)
Date: ca.248 - ca.249
Genre: -
Theme: Faith and Christian Reflection
Clavis: 1476
Biblio:
BORRET M., SC 132 (1967) : livres 1-2 ; SC 136 (1968) : livres 3-4 ; SC 147 (1969) : livres 5-6 ; SC 150 ( 1969 ) : livres 7-8.
2 16 (p.330, l.44 - <) BP3
Antioch, Syria (1 ancient author(s))

Iohannes Chrysostomus (2 work(s))
Iohannes
Chrysostomus
Catecheses ad illuminandos 1-8 (Wenger) (1)
Date: ca.386 - ca.403
Genre: -
Theme: Catechesis
Clavis: 4465
Biblio:
WENGER R., SC 50 (1957).
3 § 16 (p.160, l.5 - < >) BPH
In Epistulam ad Colossenses homiliae 1-12 (1)
Date: ca.386 - ca.403
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 4433
Biblio:
MIGNE J.-P., PG 62 (1862).
6 (p.341, l.35 - <) BPH
Gaul (1 ancient author(s))

Hilarius Pictauiensis (2 work(s))
Hilarius
Pictauiensis
Liber contra Constantium Imperatorem (1)
Date: ca.360 - ca.361
Genre: -
Theme: Heresy
Clavis: 461
Biblio:
ROCHER A., SC 334 (1987).
§ 4 (p.174, l.10) BP6
Tractatus super psalmos I - XCI (1)
Date: ca.360 - ca.367
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 428
Biblio:
ZINGERLE A., CSEL 22 (1891), 3-354 ; 544-870.
138 § 12 (p.753, l.17) BP6
Greece, Minor Asia (1 ancient author(s))

Gregorius Nazianzenus (1 work(s))
Gregorius
Nazianzenus
Orationes 42-45 (1)
Date: ca.362 - ca.390
Genre: -
Theme: Catechesis
Clavis: 3010
Biblio:
PG 36, 457-664.
45 § 16 (p.645) BP5
Greek historians (1 ancient author(s))

Eusebius Caesariensis (1 work(s))
Eusebius
Caesariensis
Demonstratio evangelica (1)
Date: ca.314 - ca.322
Genre: -
Theme: Apologetics
Clavis: 3487
Biblio:
HEIKEL I.A., GCS 23 (1913), 2-496.
3 4 § 26 (p.114, l.28) BP4
Greek-speaking West (1 ancient author(s))

Hippolytus Romanus (1 work(s))
Hippolytus
Romanus
In Lucam 23/In Iohannem 19, 34 (in duo latrones)* (1)
Date: ca.220 - ca.250
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1889
Biblio:
ACHELIS H., GCS 1,2 (1897), 211.
(p.211, l.15) BP2
Italy (2 ancient author(s))

Ambrosius Mediolanensis (1 work(s))
Ambrosius
Mediolanensis
De uirginibus (1)
Date: ca.377
Genre: -
Theme: Christian life
Clavis: 145
Biblio:
CAZZANIGA E., S. Ambrosii Mediolanensis episcopi De virginibus (Corpus scriptorum latinorum Paravianum), Torino 1948.
1 8 § 47 (p.25, l.4) BP6
Victorinus episcopus Poetouionensis (1 work(s))
Victorinus
episcopus
Poetouionensis
Commentarii in Apocalypsim Ioannis (1)
Date: ca.258 - ca.260
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 80
Biblio:
HAUSSLEITER I., CSEL 49 (1916), 16-154.
(p.64, l.9) BP2
Palestine and Cyprus (2 ancient author(s))

Epiphanius Constantiensis (Salamiensis, Cypriota) (1 work(s))
Epiphanius
Constantiensis
(Salamiensis,
Cypriota)
Panarion 65-80 (1)
Date: ca.377 - ca.377
Genre: -
Theme: Heresy
Clavis: 3745
Biblio:
HOLL K., GCS 37 (1933), 2-229 ; 232-414 ; 416-526.
69 49 § 5 (p.196, l.11 - <) BP4
Eusebius Caesariensis (1 work(s))
Eusebius
Caesariensis
Demonstratio evangelica (1)
Date: ca.314 - ca.322
Genre: -
Theme: Apologetics
Clavis: 3487
Biblio:
HEIKEL I.A., GCS 23 (1913), 2-496.
I believe the reference is to Origen, Contra Celsus, 2.16.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04162.htm
What wonder is it, then, if in the case of One who performed many marvellous things, both beyond the power of man and with such fullness of evidence, that he who could not deny their performance, endeavoured to calumniate them by comparing them to acts of sorcery, should have manifested also in His death some greater display of divine power, so that His soul, if it pleased, might leave its body, and having performed certain offices out of it, might return again at pleasure? And such a declaration is Jesus said to have made in the Gospel of John, when He said: No man takes My life from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. And perhaps it was on this account that He hastened His departure from the body, that He might preserve it, and that His legs might not be broken, as were those of the robbers who were crucified with Him. For the soldiers broke the legs of the first, and of the other who was crucified with Him; but when they came to Jesus, and saw that He was dead, they broke not His legs. We have accordingly answered the question, How is it credible that Jesus could have predicted these things? And with respect to this, How could the dead man be immortal? let him who wishes to understand know, that it is not the dead man who is immortal, but He who rose from the dead. So far, indeed, was the dead man from being immortal, that even the Jesus before His decease— the compound being, who was to suffer death— was not immortal. For no one is immortal who is destined to die; but he is immortal when he shall no longer be subject to death. But Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more: death has no more dominion over Him; although those may be unwilling to admit this who cannot understand how such things should be said.

PS - Stephan is right. Good posts take time; the opposite take no effort at all and indeed arise from the absence of effort taken.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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