What is the earliest letter that indicates a belief in a HJ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: What is the earliest letter that indicates a belief in a

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Peter,
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Taken in and of itself, could this verse in this passage be figuratively referring to the crucifixion of the Lord?
Hardly so, because Paul specified that Christ/Jesus Christ was crucified twice (1 Cor 1:23, 2:2) and mentioned the cross of Christ also twice (1 Cor 1:17-18), right before 1 Cor 2:8.
I do not know why Paul would keep repeating a metaphor (for excessive suffering) and mentioning a symbolic cross.
If "crucified" was metaphorical, Paul would have replaced "crucified" once or twice by "suffered" or equivalent.

However, much later, Paul used clearly "crucified" as metaphorical in Gal 6:14.

Cordially, Bernard
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Sheshbazzar
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Re: What is the earliest letter that indicates a belief in a

Post by Sheshbazzar »

well somebody did....
Bernard Muller
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Re: What is the earliest letter that indicates a belief in a

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Peter,
Sure. I have nothing against you. Which pages discuss the epistles, with their editing and interpolations?
- In http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html:
"The beginning of Christianity (up to 57)"
The group of Seven (proto-Christianity)=> the church of Antioch (Jewish Christianity)=> Paul of Tarsus (embryonic Gentile Christianity)=> Apollos of Alexandria (full Gentile Christianity)

I discussed the role of Paul in the development & evolution of Christian beliefs.

- In HJ-3b extension: http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3xx.html, I discussed the interpolations in '1Thessalonians' & 'Hebrews' and the dating of 'Galatians'.

- In http://historical-jesus.info/t58.html, I have a simple table about the beliefs of the early later Jesus' followers with the upgrading of Paul's preaching.

- In http://historical-jesus.info/appb.html from section 3.2 to 3.4, I discussed Paul's first & second journey. I have a link there ("Paul's third journey") leading to In http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html where I also explained the two Corinthians letters are actually the combinations of three letters for each. Also on that webpage, I have links to the reconstructed text for each letters with their interpolations.

And then, I have my "sort of" blog at http://historical-jesus.info/blog.html
Use your browser to search for >> {Paul} <<.
I have no less than 35 blog posts with the keyword "Paul".
Just scan for each one in that blog entry page where, for each blog post, I have a long descriptive title with a short introduction.

Some blog posts of special interest:
- http://historical-jesus.info/73.html #73 Two arguments in favour of proving Marcion's Pauline epistles were written after the "canonical" ones

- http://historical-jesus.info/64.html #64 Why are 'the Acts of the Apostles' and Paul not often mentioned or/and quoted from end of 1st century up to 180 CE?
'Acts' has many flaws and Paul was far from being accepted by all Christians. Also about the external evidence for Paul and about Justin Martyr quoting Paul.

- http://historical-jesus.info/56.html #56 Does "likeness of sinful flesh" in Romans 8:3 and "likeness of men" in Philippians 2:7 imply a docetist incarnation?
According to two examples in ancient Greek literature, secular and religious, “likeness” can be used for a man originating from human parent when allegedly, he is the result of the incarnation of a divine being.

- http://historical-jesus.info/55.html #55 How do you make a correction when there are no delete keys to use? a lesson by Paul
A study of 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, followed by a remark against a "fabricated" Paul

- http://historical-jesus.info/20.html #20 Were the earliest Christians of Corinth told about Jesus in a worldly manner?
A basic analysis of 2 Corinthians 5:16b demonstrates it was the case, and Paul asked his Christians to forget about what they heard in the past. With update from OHJ

- http://historical-jesus.info/7.html #7 Paul's historical Jesus (continued)
The data about HJ, as supplied by Paul, points to only one individual.

- http://historical-jesus.info/6.html #6 Paul's historical Jesus
How did Paul define HJ in his (7) authentic epistles?

- http://historical-jesus.info/5.html #5 Did Paul admit in Romans 3:7 he was a liar? Yes, but only for pious lies.
This verse is "interpreted" otherwise: no surprise here.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: What is the earliest letter that indicates a belief in a

Post by Peter Kirby »

Thank you for these references. I'll check them out.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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