in defence of astrotheology

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Robert Tulip
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Robert Tulip »

Leucius Charinus wrote:The big question is how did the Jesus Story fit in to this already extant pagan environment of "theology founded on astronomy".
This is the central question which should be the focus. I am sorry for following the distraction about Christmas, and for my error in reading Pliny, which Ulan has kindly corrected. To me it is obvious that Christianity is a solar religion, and I find it frustrating that this simple intuition is so opaque to others. So the challenge is to go back to first principles and provide a compelling logical argument.

The fit between Jesus and astronomy can be approached by starting from the line in The Lord’s Prayer ‘thy will be done on earth as in heaven’, an ethical and ontological injunction whose meaning is strongly cognate to the Hermetic Egyptian maxim ‘as above so below’. These central religious maxims present the idea that a harmony between earth and heaven is the supreme goal, that the temporal world of change should follow the same eternal ordered laws as the celestial sphere.

The Bible presents heaven as referring primarily to the visible firmament, not to the later myth of a cloudy afterlife. So for example the angel’s call in the apocalypse to “Worship him who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and the springs of waters!" naturally puts heaven together with the rest of the natural creation. What this all means is that observation of the order of heaven provides the natural template for the ideal goal of order on earth, an ideal represented by the eschatological vision of Christ the King.

Ancient astronomy rediscovered the accurate rate of precession of the equinoxes in about 134 BC, when Hipparchus compared a total lunar eclipse to ancient Babylonian star maps and calculated the speed of the shift. Over the subsequent centuries before the writing of the Gospels, this knowledge meant that Gnostic seers could observe and predict the movement of the alpha and omega point of the year, the vernal equinox. The picture below shows the position of the equinox at the time of Christ, in 21 AD.
Image
Imagining the perspective of ancient observers, a number of simple observations can be seen which illustrate how the Christ Myth is based directly on this astronomical movement.

The diagonal yellow line is the path of the sun, travelling forward through the year, and backward through the great year of precession. This yellow line has been constant against the stars for all history, equating to what Plato in the Timaeus called “the same”. The horizontal white line is the celestial equator, the line separating the north and south hemispheres, crossed by the sun at the spring and autumn equinoxes. This line moves at the rate discovered by Hipparchus of more than one degree per century, actually at one degree per 71.6 years. This line equates to what Plato in the Timaeus called “the different”, in his explanation that two great circles form an X in the heavens, as his wonderful definition of time as the moving image of eternity attests.

For the two thousand years before Christ, the X point moved through the constellation of the ram, whose foot is shown anointing the point where the X moves into the sign of the fishes. The ancient use of this motif appears on the Farnese Globe, dated to the second century BC.
Image

At the time of Christ, when the equinox point shifted across the first fish of Pisces, the seasons and the stars were in perfect alignment for the only time in history, in terms of the western cosmology. This observable cosmic attunement provides a compelling natural image for the Biblical concepts of glory and grace. The observed movement of the stars towards this alignment equates directly to the concept of the pre-existent logos or reason, understood as cosmic order. This temporal order was imagined as incarnate at the moment of celestial harmony at the time of Christ, understood as the beginning and end of the grand cycle of time, providing the basis for the description of Christ in Revelation 15:3 as King of the Ages.

If the Bible is approached from the hypothesis that the authors sought to explain the observed harmony between earth and heaven as seen in this motif from precession, basically the whole book starts to make scientific sense. The Apocalypse in particular is full of precessional imagery, often very direct, but all lightly hidden due to the need to be accepted in the literalist canon. Precession is the interpretative key, proving that Christ was imagined as anthropomorphic allegory for the power and stability of the sun.

The great stumbling block for believers and foolishness for scientists here is that the myth of Christ crucified in the heavens is based on direct and simple visual observation of the sun and the sky. But the simplicity of the observation is complicated by the extremely slow pace of the shift of the ages. My view is that the authors could see that for some mysterious reason the masses of believers were simply unable to engage with astronomy. This failure continues to bedevil Christianity, which has been thoroughly traumatised by the malevolent error of literalism, to the point that people are simply blind to the facts that are hidden in plain sight in the texts.
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John T
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by John T »

@Robert Tulip,

Did the Essenes leave any Dead Sea Scrolls that support your view?

Sincerely,
John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Stephan Huller
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Stephan Huller »

I don't understand why Robert has to jump FROM 'there are astronomical characteristics' and astronomical elements to early Christianity TO 'here is THE CHRIST MYTH.' What on earth is the evidence to support each part of his CHRIST MYTH? While I am supportive of 21 CE as the year of the crucifixion he has to stop jumping like a fucking jack rabbit towards the finish line which is 'THE COMPLETE, AMAZING HOLY MYTH' business. Calm the fuck down. Let's take the pieces one by one. And above stop interjecting beliefs and practices from other religions and traditions. There were HUNDREDS of myths in antiquity, dozens of mystery religions. You can't just assume that one belief system crossed over into another.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Leucius Charinus »

In defence of Robert's position it seems pretty clear that most if not all of the theology in the Egypto-Graeco-Roman world was founded on astronomy. Thus the term astrotheological seems to be reasonably appropriate. Additionally it is known that Astronomy and Astrology were one field in antiquity. It was a long epoch where the Oracles of the Gods, especially the Solar God Apollo, spoke to the people from shrines and temples. So I think that these discussions are productive from this perspective. I had not even looked at a definition of what astrotheology was before I started this thread.

I must say I was impressed with the parallel between the diagram of the precession and the photo of the Farnese_Atlas.
  • The Farnese Atlas is a 2nd-century Roman marble copy of a Hellenistic sculpture of Atlas kneeling with the celestial spheres, not a globe, weighing heavily on his shoulders. It is the oldest extant statue of the Titan of Greek mythology, who is represented in earlier vase-painting, and more important, the oldest known representation of the celestial sphere. The sculpture is at the National Archaeological Museum of Naples, in Italy. It stands seven feet (2.1 meters) tall, and the globe is 65 cm in diameter.

    The name Farnese Atlas reflects its acquisition by Cardinal Alessandro Farnese in the early 16th century, and its subsequent exhibition in the Villa Farnese.

    Atlas labors under the weight because he had been sentenced by Zeus to hold up the sky. The globe shows a depiction of the night sky as seen from outside the outermost celestial sphere, with low reliefs depicting 41 (some sources say 42) of the 48 classical Greek constellations distinguished by Ptolemy, including; Aries the ram, Cygnus the swan and Hercules the hero. The Farnese Atlas is the oldest surviving pictorial record of Western constellations. It dates to Roman times, around AD 150, but has long been presumed to represent constellations mapped in earlier Greek work.
There appears not to be a complete consensus on the date of this artefact.

There are a few ways forward. Any astrotheological motifs in the NT can be denied, or it may be agreed that there are indeed some astrotheological motifs able to enumerated from the NT, and which may lead to a conclusion that there is at least *some" astrotheological motifs in the NT. I think that even the greatest critics of this astrotheological approach would have to admit that the NT is most likely employs syncretism of religious beliefs. So what's the problem in adding a further series of astrotheological beliefs?



LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Hey Ulan,

Thanks for the clarifications and background comments ....
Ulan wrote:
Before the Julian calendar reform, the Roman calendar was a complete mess. People didn't know at the beginning of a year how long that year would be. The length of the year was determined by a politician and, because of this arrangement, dependent on the whims of that politician. The Roman calendar was useless for the determination of the start of the seasons or a winter solstice. It was only in 37 BC that, for the first time, the start of the seasons could be attached to the calendar by Varro. It took another 100 years to calculate the solstice, and at that time, the Solarium Augusti had become incorrect again.

I see the role of the Solarium Augusti more as a political statement than anything else. The calendar reform had made it possible, for the first time, to use such a calendar for proper planning. It brought stability into the year, and I guess the "Solarium" was Augustus' way of binding himself to this image of stability. Politicians again.
Totally agree. Politics of Emperor and Empire. Quite a golden age for the Romans under Augustus, son of the divine JC.


So, to finally get to your question, I think that societies that base their calendars on moon cycles, like the traditional Roman or Jewish calendars, put a relatively low value on solar imagery and everything that is connected with it. The imagery is sometimes used in descriptions, but never central. This is also true for the Greeks, where the sun god had a relatively low position, until Apollon usurped this position in Roman times. Which in the end concentrates the solar connection in pretty much all these cases on contacts with Egypt.
Apollo got a lot of airplay in the CE with the temples and monumental architecture, as did his son Asclepius. The following stuff from WIKI ....
  • Apollo (Attic, Ionic, and Homeric Greek: Ἀπόλλων, Apollōn (GEN Ἀπόλλωνος); Doric: Ἀπέλλων, Apellōn; Arcadocypriot: Ἀπείλων, Apeilōn; Aeolic: Ἄπλουν, Aploun; Latin: Apollō) is one of the most important and complex of the Olympian deities in classical Greek and Roman religion and Greek and Roman mythology. The ideal of the kouros (a beardless, athletic youth), Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun, truth and prophecy, healing, plague, music, poetry, and more. Apollo is the son of Zeus and Leto, and has a twin sister, the chaste huntress Artemis.

    ////

    After the battle of Actium, which was fought near a sanctuary of Apollo, Augustus enlarged Apollo's temple, dedicated a
    portion of the spoils to him, and instituted quinquennial games in his honour.[174] He also erected a new temple to the
    god on the Palatine hill.[175] Sacrifices and prayers on the Palatine to Apollo and Diana formed the culmination of the
    Secular Games, held in 17 BCE to celebrate the dawn of a new era.
In regard to the common era ....
  • In the 2nd and 3rd century CE, those at Didyma and Clarus pronounced
    the so-called "theological oracles", in which Apollo confirms that
    all deities are aspects or servants of an all-encompassing, highest deity.

    "In the 3rd century, Apollo fell silent.
Eusebius seems to suggest that Christian Jedi Masters intercepted the comms link between Apollo and the priesthood of Apollo during the rule of Diocletian, and that it was as a result of the actions by these Christian Jedi Hackers that Diocletian persecuted the Christians.

I have often wondered about that story ....



LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Ulan
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Ulan »

Robert Tulip wrote:The great stumbling block for believers and foolishness for scientists here is that the myth of Christ crucified in the heavens is based on direct and simple visual observation of the sun and the sky.
The great stumbling block I see here is to prove whether anyone anywhere in the ancient world believed any of this. That's what I don't see. Any evidence that doesn't need putting in lots of personal interpretation upfront to convert it into evidence.
Robert Tulip wrote:This failure continues to bedevil Christianity, which has been thoroughly traumatised by the malevolent error of literalism, to the point that people are simply blind to the facts that are hidden in plain sight in the texts.
Sure, literalism is often in the way of understanding. The funny thing is that, from the examples given, like "king of the ages" or "I am the light of this world", it's your interpretation that is based on strict literalism, a kind of literalism even bog standard biblical literalists would not employ.

Sorry Robert, but this again reads like a sermon, a naked statement of belief that hangs in the air. The use of loaded expressions like "bedevil", "traumatized" or "malevolent error" cements this impression. It reminds me a bit of Paul's letter style where he laments the blindness of unbelievers who decided to follow the false prophets.
Robert Tulip
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Robert Tulip »

Ulan wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:The great stumbling block for believers and foolishness for scientists here is that the myth of Christ crucified in the heavens is based on direct and simple visual observation of the sun and the sky.
The great stumbling block I see here is to prove whether anyone anywhere in the ancient world believed any of this. That's what I don't see. Any evidence that doesn't need putting in lots of personal interpretation upfront to convert it into evidence.
Agreed, and so the question is to what extent claims of precessional code in the Bible constitute “personal interpretation” and to what extent they provide a coherent and compelling explanation of the most likely composition methods and intentions of the texts. My experience is that the claim is far from most people’s headspace, given the general lack of understanding of visual astronomy, and especially for people who are deluded by literalist religion. As a result there is a general lack of interest in examining the evidence, such as by compiling the images in the apocalypse and analysing how they fit an objective precessional eschatology.

What that means in simple terms is that my hypothesis is that the Bible authors could see a real star clock in the sky, and they built their story to align with the ticking of the cosmos.
Ulan wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:This failure continues to bedevil Christianity, which has been thoroughly traumatised by the malevolent error of literalism, to the point that people are simply blind to the facts that are hidden in plain sight in the texts.
Sure, literalism is often in the way of understanding. The funny thing is that, from the examples given, like "king of the ages" or "I am the light of this world", it's your interpretation that is based on strict literalism, a kind of literalism even bog standard biblical literalists would not employ.
My literalism is of the type “the sun literally appears to rise in the morning”. That is a completely justified scientific method. By contrast, your “bog standard biblical literalists” contend that Jesus Christ was literally born of a virgin and rose from the dead, contrary to all scientific explanation.

The sun is literally the light of the world. Similarly, the shift of the equinox from Aries to Pisces at the time of Christ is literally the alpha and omega point of the great year, against the framework of the ancient calendar. This scientific literalism is objective and simple and easily defensible, but as I say, it is a stumbling block for those who cannot see it for various cultural and psychological reasons. It opens a fascinating problem regarding what Paul meant by his phrase “the power and wisdom of God” in 1 Corinthians 1:24.
Ulan wrote:
Sorry Robert, but this again reads like a sermon, a naked statement of belief that hangs in the air. The use of loaded expressions like "bedevil", "traumatized" or "malevolent error" cements this impression. It reminds me a bit of Paul's letter style where he laments the blindness of unbelievers who decided to follow the false prophets.
Look, I believe in the existence of the universe as described by science. I can’t help it if other people don’t believe in objective reality. Values should be based on facts, with evidence and logic as the highest good. If your personal faith involves an assertion that Christendom was ethically and ontologically correct, as your description of the trauma of false faith as a “loaded expression” would suggest, you have my sincere sympathy and condolence.
Ulan
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Ulan »

Robert Tulip wrote:Look, I believe in the existence of the universe as described by science. I can’t help it if other people don’t believe in objective reality. Values should be based on facts, with evidence and logic as the highest good. If your personal faith involves an assertion that Christendom was ethically and ontologically correct, as your description of the trauma of false faith as a “loaded expression” would suggest, you have my sincere sympathy and condolence.
It's the other way round, Robert. Where are your facts and evidence? I'm not talking about the sun, the stars or the equinox. I'm talking about facts and evidence of what people did with these observations. That is here the question. Logic is of course always good to use, but, well, I don't see it in your approach. You make it sound as if just the existence of these celestial bodies, constellations and movements necessarily produced Christianity. But that's not logical. There is nothing that makes such a conclusion "obvious". You would have to show that someone did this. Everything else is belief and religion, not a "scientific" approach.

I'm a scientist and an atheist. I have no religious shackles that dictate my view in one way or the other here. If you somehow managed to show at least a single, convincing evidence for you myth, I would be the first to congratulate you to your achievement. Alas, I don't see any such thing. I don't see you using a scientific approach. It's all preaching from your side.

Stephan Huller has many ideas which are pretty far out there, like regarding the nature of Marcion's antitheses or Jesus as Moses' Ishu, but he always has something that corroborates his ideas. No final proof - that's nice to have but hard to come by in NT studies - but at least some evidence. Here, I just see assertions. Repeating assertions is not a scientific approach. It's more akin to what a priest does during Sunday service.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Robert Tulip wrote:
Ulan wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:The great stumbling block for believers and foolishness for scientists here is that the myth of Christ crucified in the heavens is based on direct and simple visual observation of the sun and the sky.
The great stumbling block I see here is to prove whether anyone anywhere in the ancient world believed any of this. That's what I don't see. Any evidence that doesn't need putting in lots of personal interpretation upfront to convert it into evidence.
Agreed, and so the question is to what extent claims of precessional code in the Bible constitute “personal interpretation” and to what extent they provide a coherent and compelling explanation of the most likely composition methods and intentions of the texts.
Hi Robert,

You have already cited some references here and there inn this thread in support of this contention. Could you gather these together in a list - it does not have to be completely comprehensive - so that they may be considered? I believe that I have independently established that most people in antiquity were very familiar with astrotheological motifs. What we need to now do is to identify some of these in the text of the NT.



LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: in defence of astrotheology

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Ulan wrote:I'm a scientist and an atheist. I have no religious shackles that dictate my view in one way or the other here. If you somehow managed to show at least a single, convincing evidence for you myth, I would be the first to congratulate you to your achievement. Alas, I don't see any such thing. I don't see you using a scientific approach. It's all preaching from your side.
I don't see Robert's responses as preaching although I can see why people could see it in that manner. I see Robert making the allusions to fundamental astronomical and astrological (the fields were not distinct in antiquity AFAIK) knowledge. This I construe as a type of nature worship, and one that I am vitally interested in. This worship can be solitary and not requiring of discussion, points of view, proselyting or preaching.

In my post above I have asked for textual evidence from the NT which might support Robert's (and other peoples) ideas, and AFAIK there are some textual references. Let them be listed! Let them be evaluated! Let the sources be discussed!




LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
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