C’mon On Robert, Really? Review of Amazing Colossal Apostle

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robert j
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by robert j »

andrewcriddle wrote:Price is presumably basing his translation of Philippians 1:16-17 on 4:22
All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household.
Andrew Criddle
Yes, perhaps the source.

(not saying that you claimed this was a justification ) But, IMO, the mention of greetings from “Caesar’s household” in the closing in Philippians 4:22 does not justify the addition of “before Caesar” in Philippians 1:16.

Nor does it mean the events related in the letter took place in Rome. Paul was imprisoned by in a government facility. (Phil. 1:13). Ephesus was a large and important regional center --- very likely to have a Roman administrative center with a prison.

As Paul often did, he seemed to be putting lipstick on a pig --- trying to put a positive spin on his situation --- explaining that what happened to him “resulted in the advancement of the gospel” because it made known to all that his “imprisonment is for Christ”. (Phil. 1:12-13).

Paul’s gave his closing greeting “from Caesar’s household” (Phil 4:22) --- I think the Philippians would have understood Paul’s little joke.

It’s a plausible solution that should not be precluded by the addition of extraneous, unnecessary, and unjustified words in the process of translation --- words that clearly bias the interpretation in favor of one possible solution, at the expense of another possible solution.
robert j
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by robert j »

Peter Kirby wrote:Moreover, you have not provided any evidence that Price is basing his interpretation of Galatians of 4:10 on a faulty or "padded" translation...
The problem with Price’s translation of Galatians 4:10 is this ---- what if he’s wrong? That is, what if his creative translation unjustifiably eliminated another entirely feasible interpretation? Another interpretation entirely consistent with the reasonably literal translation used by nearly all bible translators.

The extant NT scriptures are primary evidence. Sure, all translation involves some bias --- but IMO, Price’s translation of the passage is very far indeed from any ideal, and clearly crosses the sometimes blurry line between translation and interpretation.

Here’s the Greek, followed by a reasonably literal English translation, similar to nearly all Bible translators ---
ἡμέρας παρατηρεῖσθε καὶ μῆνας καὶ καιροὺς καὶ ἐνιαυτούς.

"You observe days and months and seasons and years." (Gal. 4:10).
And here are the four words --- that are not found in the extant Greek nor in bible translations --- that Price added to his translation of this one short sentence ---

holy
of fasting
penitential
canonical

IMO, this goes well beyond the spirit of dynamic equivalence. In his commentary, Price’s translation clearly provides support for his own interpretation ---
"Verse 10 tells us they were Judaizing Christians who kept certain holy days and food regulations, reminding us that in so doing, they worshipped not the true God, but the much inferior angels of the demiurge." (p. 426)
OK, the standard interpretation using the standard translation of this passage is about Jewish observances. If Price is right, no harm no foul with his creative translation. However, there is at least one other possibility.

The letter was sent to Galatians --- these were Celtic people. Ancient witnesses* --- as well as numerous archeological sites --- provide clear testimony of the Celtic nature of central Anatolia at the time of Paul, and also some information about Celtic religious practices. *(Strabo, Geography, 12.5.1 through 12.5.3, and Jerome, Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians, Book 2.3).

There is evidence to support the Celtic nature of Galatians 4:10. But in order to get to the point, I’ll leave the evidence to the end for anyone interested.

I’m not arguing for either a Jewish solution or a Celtic solution here. Whether one prefers a Jewish solution for Galatians 4:10 --- or a Celtic solution --- or neither --- such evaluation belongs in the realm of interpretation. As long as more than one solution is feasible based on the evidence, then inserting biased extraneous words into the extant text and calling it “canonical” unjustifiably biases the interpretation.

My primary criticism --- the reader was not informed that the translation provided by the author contained extraneous words --- words that biased the interpretation in favor of the author’s own interpretation (pp. 426) at the expense of other possible interpretations. If the book contains such a disclosure --- I sure couldn’t find it.

Evidence and arguments that a Celtic solution is justifiable ---

Few details of the specific rituals of their religion are available because the Celts didn't, by doctrine, write about their religion (Caesar, Julius, Gallic War, 6.14). Nonetheless, from reports of others from across the widely scattered populations of Celts, the most basic features of their religion are clear and surprisingly consistent. Their specific divinities were often of a local nature, but the general spiritual, elemental, and natural themes were universal.

The religion of the polytheistic Celts was naturalistic and animistic. They believed spirits inhabited not only humans, but also animals, plants, mountains, forests, rivers, other natural landscape features, the celestial bodies, and likely all elements of their natural environment.

In this one paragraph, I’m just guessing at a possible reason for Paul to feel the need to briefly address a Celtic issue. Paul may have received a report from one of his partners that some of the Galatians were once again being convinced by some of their Jewish friends and neighbors that circumcision was indeed necessary for full participation in the rich heritage of the God of Israel. Oh, and by the way, Paul was told, some of them are falling back into their odd pagan superstitions, and observing some of their strange calendar cycles and rituals.

In the first half or so of Chapter 4, Paul takes a short break from his wider argument against those encouraging circumcision, starting with a transition in verses 4:1 through 4:7. Paul goes on to chastise the Galatians for lapses into paganism. Paul makes it clear he is not addressing Jews here, but former pagans,
"But then indeed not knowing God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods." (Gal, 4:8).
This passage reveals that Paul was addressing former polytheistic pagans. Paul refers to gods, plural, that --- according to Paul --- are not gods at all. The polytheistic Celts believed spirits inhabited humans, animals, plants, mountains, forests, rivers, the celestial bodies, and likely all elements of their natural environment. The nature of those spirits are identified in the next verse. The Galatians worshipped "elemental forces",
"... how do you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental forces?" (Gal. 4:9).
Paul's fully Hellenist pagans in Greece and Macedonia worshiped idols, in temples. In sharp contrast, Paul used very different descriptors for the spiritual and elemental aspects of the natural world that was the focus of worship for the Celts of Galatia.

Paul then chides the Galatians for observing the cycles of time and nature that defined their traditional calendar. The cycles of nature were intimately intertwined with the daily lives of Celtic peoples, and in the way they perceived their place in the cosmos.

The standard bible translation captures Paul's intention. I’m not proposing a new translation, but when the extant Greek words are more completely represented ---not with adding words that are not there, but by more completely representing common usages of the extant Greek words in accordance with an oft-used Greek reference like Strongs --- we might get an even clearer picture of Paul's meaning,

"You scrupulously observe days and months and opportune times and cycles of times." (Gal. 4:10, interpretative version).

Some details of the unique Celtic calendar system are known from the discovery of the Coligny Calendar in France. This calendar is inscribed with Gallo-Celtic inscriptions on a copper-alloy and is dated to the first century BCE or to the first or 2nd century CE. In addition to dividing the passage of time, the calendar designates certain periods of time as auspicious and inauspicious occasions. The annual cycle of the Celtic calendar was divided by mid-summer and mid-winter into light and dark halves of the year. The months followed a 5-year cycle of 62 months. The five-year cycle repeated six times in a longer 30-year calendar cycle.

Pliny the Elder (ca. 23 - 79 CE) described the cycles and the spiritual aspects of the Celtic calendar ---
"… on the fifth day of the moon, the day which is the beginning of their months and years, as also of their ages, which, with them, are but thirty years. This day they select because the moon, though not yet in the middle of her course, has already considerable power and influence; and they call her by a name which signifies, in their language, the all-healing." (Pliny, Natural History, 16.95).
Paul provided multiple clues that his Galatians had special reverence for "elemental forces", for multiple gods that are not [according to Paul] gods, and for observing “opportune times" and "cycles of times". All these fit exceeding well with known Celtic beliefs and practices.

This does not pre-suppose the North Galatian theory, but rather provides evidence supporting such a location.
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DCHindley
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by DCHindley »

robert j wrote:I didn’t accuse Price of being dishonest (though I suppose you didn’t directly say that I did). I suggested that Price --- after chiding the ancients for interpolating and padding the text --- did the very same thing. And then he used his padded text to support his specific interpretation of the passage. ...

In Galatians 4:10, I don’t deny one might characterize Price’s version as a different way of translation. But I still believe that it goes beyond translation and clearly falls into the realm better left to interpretation.
I would call Price's translation a paraphrase, intended to add matters that he thought were implied but not specifically stated. The Good News Bible, the Living Bible and even the NIV are examples of paraphrases that mix in interpretations (technical term eisegesis) that comes from the POV of US style Evangelical Christianity (predominantly Calvinistic in its theology). The problem is, there are numerous flavors of Calvinistic denominations, and they like to nit pick at each other's paraphrases. Boo hoo. :confusedsmiley:

The Jesus Seminar does this kind of paraphrasing as well in The Five Gospels.

DCH
Bernard Muller
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by Bernard Muller »

to rober j
Evidence and arguments that a Celtic solution is justifiable ---
I also support the Celtic solution for other reasons (Paul's Christians in Galatia were in its "northern" part).
You made also some good arguments in favor of that option, which I will likely incorporate on my webpage: http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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Peter Kirby
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by Peter Kirby »

robert j wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:Moreover, you have not provided any evidence that Price is basing his interpretation of Galatians of 4:10 on a faulty or "padded" translation...
The problem with Price’s translation of Galatians 4:10 is this ---- what if he’s wrong? That is, what if his creative translation unjustifiably eliminated another entirely feasible interpretation? Another interpretation entirely consistent with the reasonably literal translation used by nearly all bible translators.

The extant NT scriptures are primary evidence. Sure, all translation involves some bias --- but IMO, Price’s translation of the passage is very far indeed from any ideal, and clearly crosses the sometimes blurry line between translation and interpretation.

Here’s the Greek, followed by a reasonably literal English translation, similar to nearly all Bible translators ---
ἡμέρας παρατηρεῖσθε καὶ μῆνας καὶ καιροὺς καὶ ἐνιαυτούς.

"You observe days and months and seasons and years." (Gal. 4:10).
And here are the four words --- that are not found in the extant Greek nor in bible translations --- that Price added to his translation of this one short sentence ---

holy
of fasting
penitential
canonical

IMO, this goes well beyond the spirit of dynamic equivalence.
I don't understand why you quote my post at all. You haven't interacted with it.
robert j wrote:However, there is at least one other possibility.
At least that's interesting. And if you were offering the kind of translation that Price does, you'd be making all of this more clear in the translation.

As long as you're hammering his translation and not just taking him to task for his interpretation, you can't really get anywhere.
robert j wrote:That is, what if his creative translation unjustifiably eliminated another entirely feasible interpretation?
A certain kind of translation is indeed intended to leave to one side the full set of ambiguities that could be explored in a passage so that the reader can have a clearer sense of (what the translator regards as, naturally!) the intended meaning of the author.

You don't even have to like this sort of translation. I don't. You just have to be able to recognize that it exists.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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MrMacSon
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by MrMacSon »

robert j wrote: The extant NT scriptures are primary evidence.
"primary evidence" of what, exactly?

4th-century redacted-Christianity? 6th C redacted-Christianity?? something else?

"extant"?? extant simply means still in existence ... hardly anything to do with origins, unless explained as so.
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cienfuegos
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by cienfuegos »

robert j wrote:
cienfuegos wrote:EDIT: The Caesar case:
Benson Commentary wrote:For the confirmation of it by my sufferings. They who preached Christ with a pure intention, knew certainly that the apostle was sent to Rome to defend the gospel by suffering for it.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson ... ians/1.htm

I guess he could have said "Rome" but the idea here is that he is in chains in Rome defending the gospel before Caesar. Once again, this is about making these texts more contextually understandable to us removed by 2000 years and several layers of cultural differences (except maybe Stephen Huller). I don't think it is as clear that this is misleading as you seem to think.
This is a good example. You seem to agree with the interpretation that Paul was “in chains in Rome defending the gospel before Caesar”.

But the evidence in the letters seems to point to the imprisonment, mentioned in the letter to the Philippians, taking place in Ephesus, not Rome. A solution with which many investigators agree. Certainly a solution as strong as others. It’s a matter of interpretation.

The extant Greek texts do not say “before Caesar”. By adding those words to the letter --- and declaring it to be canonical --- one introduces bias to the primary evidence.
Here you are not only arguing against Price, but also the Benson commentary. I could find other commentaries. I think you could stretch the meaning of "Caesar" to mean Rome in the sense of any Roman in an official capacity acting on the authority of Caesar.
robert j
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Re: RM Price's Amazing Colossal Apostle

Post by robert j »

cienfuegos wrote:Here you are not only arguing against Price, but also the Benson commentary. I could find other commentaries. I think you could stretch the meaning of "Caesar" to mean Rome in the sense of any Roman in an official capacity acting on the authority of Caesar.
Exactly, and that’s where such concepts belong --- in the commentaries. I have no problem with anyone expressing their interpretations. But I hold a conservative view of translation --- but recognize others may not.

The translation of these two verses in the book are outside the norm and find little if any support from other bible translators. I could not find any bible translation that presented either of these two verses with the extraneous words found in the book. (If any exist, I didn’t find them).

In my opinion, unless the reader is clearly informed, a translator should not present a translation of scripture as “canonical” when the translation includes significant extraneous words --- words not represented in the extant Greek nor finding significant support among other translators --- words that can significantly influence important points of interpretation. I couldn’t find such a disclaimer in the book and that’s the issue on which I disagree with Dr. Price here.

Sure some readers will check the translations for themselves --- but many if not most will not. Many might take the verses as presented as “gospel”.

As I said before, I think Price’s book is an interesting read and a valuable source of information on his theories on Paul and the Paulines.
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

cienfuegos wrote:Here you are not only arguing against Price, but also the Benson commentary. I could find other commentaries. I think you could stretch the meaning of "Caesar" to mean Rome in the sense of any Roman in an official capacity acting on the authority of Caesar.
Yes. As an analogy it could be compared to referring to UK courts as "the Crown."
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Re: C’mon On Robert, Really? - Review of RM Price

Post by outhouse »

MrMacSon wrote:4th-century redacted-Christianity? 6th C redacted-Christianity?? .

You would do better to show what your guesses are for a 6th century redaction and exactly how few words were changed.

Same for the 4rth.


No one argues there were small changes in interpretation, and the copies of copies, but how you posit these changes, is unsubstantiated.
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