ficino wrote:I'm not up on the dating of gJohn or of the pool of Bethesda/Bethsaida (if those are the same). Was it destroyed in the sack of Jerusalem? Wikipedia gives the impression that people sought out its healing waters for centuries before and after the Revolt. I'll be grateful for an explanation of how John 5:2 contributes to the dating of the 4th gospel.
gJohn describes five porticoes - i.e. a structure. The water pool would have survived the events of 70 c.e. - but the structure?
Link to a pdf article you might find interesting - don't forget to put the apologetics to one side....
http://www.chafer.edu/files/v14no2_date ... gospel.pdf
Reconsidering the Date of John’s Gospel
by Thomas L. Stegall
John 5:2 and the Historical Present
One significant piece of internal evidence sometimes enlisted in support of a pre-70 date for John is the occurrence of the present tense of the Greek verb (ἔστιν) in John 5:2. 58 The prima facie reading of this verse indicates that the pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem and its five porticoes were intact at the time of John’s writing, thus providing a solid piece of evidence from within John’s Gospel that he wrote before the razing of the Jerusalem Temple in A.D. 70. John 5:2 says, “Now there is (ἔστιν) in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called (ἐπιλεγομένη) in Hebrew, Bethesda, having (ἔχουσα) five porches.”
In this verse, three present tenses are employed. They are bounded by past tense verbs in John 5:1 (imperfect and aorist tense verbs) and John 5:3 (imperfect tense). This contrast seems to highlight the significance of the present tense in verse 2.
John 5:1-3
1. After this there was (ἦν) a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up (ἀνέβη) to Jerusalem.
2. Now there is (ἔστιν) in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called (ἐπιλεγομένη) in
Hebrew, Bethesda, having (ἔχουσα) five porches.
3. In these lay (κατέκειτο) a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed
Those who maintain the 80s-90s date for John argue that the present tense of “there is” (ἔστιν) in John 5:2 is merely an instance of the “historical present.”59 The “historical present” occurs when the present tense of a verb is used to describe a past tense action or event. It is commonly used throughout the four Gospels to provide a heightened sense of action or vividness to a scene. But is the present tense of “there is” in John 5:2 merely a historical present or had Jerusalem, along with the pool of Bethesda and its five porticoes, not been destroyed yet when John wrote his Gospel?
To answer this question, we must know what the criteria are for a historical present. Wallace cites three. They must be (1) a verb of action,60 (2) occurring within a narrative text, and (3) used for the sake of vividness—“as though the author were reliving the story.”61 Does the present tense of “there is” in John 5:2 fit all of these criteria and thus fall into the syntactical category of a historical present? That does not appear to be the case. The verb “there is” can hardly be described as a verb of action since it is a state of being verb or copula.62 Though some scholars believe that there are other possible occurrences in John where “there is” is used as a historical present, this has not been demonstrated conclusively.63 Some who reject a pre-70 date for John have even gone so far as to suggest that John 5:2 may be the only use of “there is” in the New Testament as a historical present.64 Late-date proponents have yet to disprove the present temporal significance of “there is” in John 5:2. Even though a pre-A.D. 70 proponent of such stature as John A. T. Robinson felt “nothing can be built upon” the present tense in John 5:2,65 his opinion now appears prematurely dismissive. The use of the present tense in John 5:2 remains a slender but significant piece of evidence for an earlier dating of John—one that merits further serious consideration.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Gospel of John