Dating gJohn & John 5:2

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maryhelena
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by maryhelena »

ficino wrote:A further thought. The whole story is full of Jesus' being doubted, harassed, etc., by "the Jews." Not the "scribes and Pharisees" or whoever. The guy whom he heals at Bethesda later goes and tells "the Jews" what Jesus did. The people who upbraid the guy for carrying his mat on the Sabbath are "the Jews." Is this nomenclature consistent with an early date? I should think it points to a post-Revolt context.
Why would it be more appropriate to blame the Jews post 70 c.e. than pre 70 c.e.?

If one is going with a historical Jesus - assumed to have been crucified during the rule of Pilate - then why not start blaming the Jews right away? Why wait 40 plus years to do so?

From my own perspective, viewing the gospel story more like a political allegory than factual history - and viewing Jewish history back to the executed, hung on a cross/stake/pole King of the Jews (Antigonus) - the responsibility falls on Herod I - a Herodian Jew. Thus, when reading all the negatives towards Jews in the gospel story - I read 'Herodian Jews'...... ;)

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... mattathias
  • The last king of pure Jewish blood fell before the intrigues of the first king of Judea not entirely of Jewish birth.
Hasmonean Jews vs Herodian Jews - that's the historical backdrop to the gospel's negativity towards 'Jews'.
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by toejam »

There is almost no way in my view that Gospel of John was completed prior to the synoptic tradition - at least not Mark and Q and/or Matthew (I'm open to the idea that the version of Luke we have now is possibly a little later). Gospel of John seems to be responding to claims made in the synoptic tradition - e.g. trying to tone down the claim that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy by having JtBaptist himself deny the charge, having Jesus declare that he wouldn't ask to have his hour removed from him (as he does in the synoptic Gethsemane pericopes), plus having Jesus be crucified the same time the lambs are slaughtered for Passover as well as placing the 'storming of the Temple' scene early all make much more sense as later theological changes (rather than changes in the opposite direction). Could the Gospel of John contain some traditions that are earlier? Sure. But so could the Gospel of Peter and Thomas. In the end though, the bulk of the directional influence seems to be: synoptics -> John, rather than the other way around.
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maryhelena
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

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ficino wrote:Article from BAR on this pool

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail ... -miracles/

Interesting...
  • When Jesus heals the paralytic in the Gospel of John, the Bethesda Pool is described as having five porticoes—a puzzling feature suggesting an unusual five-sided pool, which most scholars dismissed as an unhistorical literary creation. Yet when this site was excavated, it revealed a rectangular pool with two basins separated by a wall—thus a five-sided pool—and each side had a portico.
I don't think gJohn should be dated pre 70 c.e. on the basis of a five-sided pool alone. The five-sided pool, as the article mentions, is a puzzling feature. Is a pool with two basins separated by a wall a pool with five porticoes? Why the number five?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 14965.html
  • FIVE

    Five probably means simply "a few" in II Kings 7:13, perhaps also in Genesis 43:34; 47:2 (cf. Er. 6:6, 8). Five as a basic number goes back to remote antiquity. There was a primitive Hamitic system based on the number five before the decimal system. It is obviously derived from the fingers of the hand used by early man in his simple calculations. In the Bible, five is related to both the decimal and sexagesimal systems. It is a feature of sacred architecture (I Kings 7:39, 49). It is also found in connection with penalties (Ex. 21:37), redemption (Num. 3:47; 18:16), and gifts (Gen. 43:34; 45:22). The fraction one-fifth is likewise common (Lev. 5:16; 22:14). It is often used as a small round number (Lev. 26:8; I Sam. 17:40; Isa. 19:18). For the multiple 50 see below. Other multiples up to 500,000 occur frequently (Gen. 5:32; Ex. 30:23–24; II Chron. 13:17, et al.).
--------------------------

So, perhaps no pool of Bethsaida with 5 porticoes......gJohn using the number 5 for some symbolic meaning. Sacred architecture = spiritual temple.
Five = the miracle of 5 loaves that (along with the two fishes) feed 5 thousand.

All this is not to say the Bethsaida pool never had porticoes - just that the number given by gJohn might be an over-estimate due to wanting to reflect a symbolic inference.
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by ficino »

According to Leon Morris' commentary on John, the pool near the Church of St. Anne is the best candidate because, for one, it was a double pool. Imagine a big rectangle, cut into two. You have four colonnades, one around each side of the big rectangle. Then you have a fifth colonnade in the middle, bisecting the rectangle, with a pool on either side of that bisecting colonnade. This double pool was not in the shape of a pentagon. The BAR article gets into a muddle when it says that this double pool was "five sided," since each of the two pools had four sides. Five colonnades do not necessarily indicate a five-sided pool!

Anyway, Morris says that the excavations below St. Anne showed the existence of five colonnades. I use the word "colonnade" rather than "portico" for clarity, but probably portico is really better, since in a portico (Latin porticus), people hang out in the spaces between or under the columns, and there is a roof on top to provide shade (Greek: stoa).

Morris points out that the 38 years of the paralytic's illness matches the years of Israel's wandering in the wilderness. There are many connections in the NT that one can make with numbers. I wouldn't argue that an allegorical reading necessarily nullifies a literal reading. Morris says that Augustine explained the five porticoes as an allegory of the five books of the Mosaic Law. They cannot save, Jesus can. As you say above, it doesn't follow that there weren't five porticoes, obviously.

A complication, though, comes from the Copper Scroll from Qumran. Morris says that it speaks of Beth Eshdatain, which favors Bethesda as the correct name of the spot. Morris cites the notorious E.J. Vardaman (pilloried by Rene Salm in various publications) for a reference to this pool in the copper scroll. Apparently the form of "pool" is dual, denoting two pools. But then, the gospel account is misleading, if not simply wrong, because it speaks of one big pool, a κολυμβήθρα. If we take John to be locating his story in the pool that is by the Sheep Pool - so as to get our double pool, i.e. Sheep plus Bethesda - then we have the problem that John describes only Bethesda, the healing pool, as having five στοάς, not the complex Sheep Pool/Bethesda.

So my thought at the moment is, does John actually display first-hand knowledge of Jerusalem? Or is he writing his description at second hand? If the latter, a big piece of the argument for 5:2 as early dating evidence is nullified, and we merely have chronological retrojection.

Still, I'm not totally convinced that the pool near St. Anne's is the one in question. Morris says that there is not an active spring there but that remains of water pipes were found, as though the pools were filled periodically from water piped in from the Temple Mount or elsewhere. But it seems that the stirring of the waters recounted in the story better fits a pool that is fed by underground springs that bubble intermittently. I've read of other pools nr. Jerusalem where this happens. For ancient local people to think that the stirring of the waters was miraculous, when in fact the water was piped in from elsewhere, would be to attribute to them more stupidity than I at least find credible. The problem here is that the "stirring of the waters" is part of a disputed section of the text, not in Sinaiticus or Vaticanus and introduced into Alexandrinus by a corrector, and so on.

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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Thanks, very interesting. A further problem is to me the literary dependence on Mark.
Mark 2:9
Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’?
τί ἐστιν εὐκοπώτερον, εἰπεῖν τῷ παραλυτικῷ Ἀφίενταί σου αἱ ἁμαρτίαι, ἢ εἰπεῖν Ἔγειρε καὶ ἆρον τὸν κράβαττόν σου καὶ περιπάτει
John 5:8
Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.”
λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἔγειρε ἆρον τὸν κράβαττόν σου καὶ περιπάτει.
In Mark the healing is "in the house" in Capernaum. It is probably the home of Peter and Andrew. But according to John 1:44 Peter and Andrew lived in Bethsaida, so the the earliest sources P66 and P75 with the reading Bethsaida or Bedsaidan would make sense, if John 5 is a Midrash on Mark 2.
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by cienfuegos »

I am not sure how an early dating of John impacts mythicism one way or another. If anything, it undermines the From Jesus to Christ approach of most historicists who argue that we can see an evolution of Jesus into a cosmic Christ if we order the gospels: Mark - Matthew - Luke - John. I do suspect that John and Revelation both could be earlier, but its hard to say if all these works were redacted several times. I certainly think the final redaction of Luke/Acts is probably the latest Gospel work.

I see mention of "mythicists" wanting John to be late but I don't know the grounds for that (maybe it was discussed before the thread split).
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by maryhelena »

cienfuegos wrote:I am not sure how an early dating of John impacts mythicism one way or another. If anything, it undermines the From Jesus to Christ approach of most historicists who argue that we can see an evolution of Jesus into a cosmic Christ if we order the gospels: Mark - Matthew - Luke - John.
An early dating for gJohn does not default mythicism nor trump historicism. It would simply thrown more light on the development of the NT story. A development that could have consequences for both sides in the historicist vs ahistoricist/mythicist debate. Placing gJohn prior to the synoptics does not result in reversing the 'From Jesus to Christ' scenario. gJohn is still a story about a crucifixion under Pilate. Sure, gJohn has lots of theology - but that does not turn that gospel into a celestial being becomes man theory - no more than gMatthew has it's virgin birth narrative or gLuke's pregnant by the Holy Spirit.. Perhaps best to view what we have in our NT as the final versions not the originals. Dating gJohn late could well mean that we have the developing gospel story back to front...... And don't forget the birth narrative in Slavonic Josephus around the 15th year of Herod I.....

I do suspect that John and Revelation both could be earlier, but its hard to say if all these works were redacted several times. I certainly think the final redaction of Luke/Acts is probably the latest Gospel work.
Yep, I'd also place Luke/Acts late - post Antiquities 94 c.e.

I see mention of "mythicists" wanting John to be late but I don't know the grounds for that (maybe it was discussed before the thread split).
Just for interest, here is Carrier on gJohn 5.2.

Richard Carrier: OHJ page 506

We already know John was fond of number symbolism……….A famous example is that of the paralyzed man cured at Bethesda, who had been paralyzed for ‘thirty-eight years’ (5.5), and was thus beginning the thirty-ninth year of his infirmity when he was cured and ‘took up his bed and walked’ (5.9), at which the Jews rebuked him because ‘it was not lawful for you to pick up your bed’ on the Sabbath (5.10). As it happens. ‘picking up your bed and moving it’ on the Sabbath is the thirty-ninth prohibition of labors in the Mishnah, the last of the ‘forty less one’ prohibited acts (‘he who transports an object from one domain to another’). So here we have a man who was accused of violating the thirty-ninth Sabbath prohibition, violating it in his thirty-ninth year of illness. This is myth, not history. However much John colors his account with historical trivia about Jerusalem, he is still just making all this up.

Footnote: 241. On various other difficulties with this passage see David Wieand, ‘John V.2 and the Pool of Bathesda’, New Testament studies 12 (1965-1966), pp. 392-404). Among other artifices in this tale are the covert fact that Jesus himself is the Sheep Gate (Jn 10.7 thus explains Jn 5.2) and the more overt fact that the whole story creatively redacts (and changes the message of) a well-known Synoptic periscope (Mk 2.1-12, which became Mt. 9.1-8 and Acts 9.33-34) by combining it with another Johannine reification of a Lucan parable (Lk.11.46).

My my - 'historical trivia about Jerusalem' and yet one wants to do a historical investigation into early christian origins..... :facepalm:
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by ficino »

ficino wrote: The problem here is that the "stirring of the waters" is part of a disputed section of the text, not in Sinaiticus or Vaticanus and introduced into Alexandrinus by a corrector, and so on.
My earlier statement needs to be made more precise. After "the withered" in the list of types of afflicted people at the pool, various manuscripts add the received text verse 4, "waiting for the movement of the water." Other, still later mss. add to verse 4 the detail about the angel's going down at various times into the pool to stir the water, and the first person going in after the disturbance of the water was healed. The best mss. omit all this.

Still, the paralytic is represented in 5:7 in all the mss. as telling jesus that he has no man to plunge him into the pool once the water has been stirred up, and while he's going there, someone else gets in ahead of him. Various manuscripts add various explanatory details.

So I conclude that the story from the first requires a pool fed by an intermittent spring, the water of which moves at intervals.

From what I have read about the pool w/ colonnade excavated near St. Anne's, it was not fed by a spring. Leon Morris quotes one guy as supposing maybe it was fed by water through pipes from cisterns, which would be opened at odd intervals. This seems ludicrous to me as an explanation of the stirring of the waters, a phemenon that the common people believed was magical or divine.

Therefore I don't regard the complex excavated nr. St. Anne's to be the Bethesda pool of the story. If it existed, it seems more likely to have been connected to the Gihon spring/ Virgin's Fountain, which displays the very phenomenon of water described in the story. Nothing has been dug up there, no stoas. So the claim that "we've dug up remarkable proof of the historicity of John 5:2" is premature, as far as I can see.

FYI:
Cyril of Jerusalem in Homily to the Paralytic at the Pool, 2 writes:
Ἐν γὰρ τοῖς Ἱεροσολύμοις ἦν προβατικὴ κολυμβήθρα
πέντε στοὰς ἔχουσα, τέσσαρας μὲν περιτρεχούσας, μέσην δὲ
τὴν πέμπτην, ἐν ᾗ κατέκειτο πλῆθος ἀσθενούντων.

"For in Jerusalem there was a Sheep Pool having five porticoes, four surrounding it, and the fifth in the middle, in which would lie a multitude of the sick." The sense and word order most naturally lead one to construe "in which" as a reference to the fifth colonnade, the one that bisects the pool. Nothing in this homily indicates that Cyril has seen this pool or colonnade. I suspect he's just working from the text of John.
Last edited by ficino on Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by ficino »

I've dug up more so am sharing with whoever is interested.

Lewis Bayles Paton, "Jerusalem in Bible Times. III. The Springs and Pools of Ancient Jerusalem," The Biblical World 29 (1907) 168-82, pp. 180-82, discusses the pool of John 5:2. He says that there are only two natural springs in/near ancient Jerusalem, and that all other pools or fountains are fed from reservoirs or cisterns. He says that excavations nr. St. Anne's unearthed a large vaulted cistern, but it didn't have "five porches capable of accommodating a multitude of people, and its waters never flowed intermittently. The Virgin's Fountain is the only intermittent spring in the vicinity of Jerusalem, and therefore Bethesda is probably to be located at this point." As of 1907, excavations had not been done there.

Two years earlier in the same journal, W.G. Masterman published an article, "The Pool of Bethesda" (vol. 27 [1905] 88-102). He says he visited the Virgin's Fountain and that it is (at time of writing) an intermittent spring. Water gushes up from underground periodically. The Virgin's Fountain is/was in a cave, and the water can rise several feet in a few minutes. The phenomenon is caused by underground cavities filling with water, which then periodically discharges. He says that at St. Anne's there is a model of the ancient pool with four arcades around the sides and one across the middle [as described in my previous post,] and as described by Cyril of Jerusalem. The model at St. Anne's shows one half of the enclosure as the Sheep's Pool and the other as the Pool of Bethesda. As I said in the last post, this does not really align with the description in John 5:2. Masterman says (p. 96) that the double pool unearthed at St. Anne's are only filled from rain water and have no evidence that there was ever a spring, nor any sign of porches. Those remains seem to be from the fourth century. There are older evidences of healings. It was within the city walls in the first century.

Outside the first century walls is what came to be called the Virgin's Fountain, aka Gihon Spring. It is a true spring; the water bursts forth into a natural cave intermittently, from every hour or two to only two or three times in 24 hrs. When it reaches 4 and 1/2 feet it overflows into the Siloam tunnel. M. thinks there were once porches around a part of it that is now not accessible. He describes the flood of people who went to the present pool in his own time to seek healings.

Another point: both Masterman and Paton favor the Virgin's Ftn because in the first century it was outside the city walls. Therefore, it was not legal for the healed man to carry his pallet on the sabbath at that spot because he was not in the special sector inside the walls. I gather the circuit of the walls created an "eruv"? This situation gives rise to the real oomph of the story, the reason for "the Jews'" opposition.

Wikipedia indicates that only a few things have been excavated nr the Gihon Spring and nothing from the first century (it talks about 8th century BCE stuff).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gihon_Spring

So the problem with the pool at St. Anne's is that it would not have had intermittent stirring of the waters, as far as we know. That seems to rule it out. So far I regard the "archaeologists have discovered amazing proof of the historical accuracy of John 5:2" stuff as not proved.
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Re: Dating gJohn & John 5:2

Post by maryhelena »

Thanks, ficino, very interestsing...

Perhaps an argument can be made for gJohn 5.2 re the Fountain of the Virgin....

[wiki]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gihon_Spring[/wiki]
  • The Gihon Spring (Hebrew: מעיין הגיחון‎) or Fountain of the Virgin[1] in the Kidron valley was the main source of water for the Pool of Siloam in the City of David, the original site of Jerusalem. One of the world's major intermittent springs—and a reliable water source that made human settlement possible in ancient Jerusalem—the spring was not only used for drinking water, but also initially for irrigation of gardens in the adjacent Kidron Valley which provided a food source for the ancient settlement.

    The spring rises in a cave 20 feet by 7.[2] Being intermittent, it required the excavation of the Pool of Siloam which stored the large amount of water needed for the town when the spring was not flowing. The spring has the singular characteristic of being intermittent, flowing from three to five times daily in winter, twice daily in summer, and only once daily in autumn. This peculiarity is accounted for by the supposition that the outlet from the reservoir is by a passage in the form of a siphon.
gJohn does mention the Pool of Siloam (9.7)

That aside. If the writer of gJohn is familiar with Jerusalem then he would know that the water to the Pool of Siloam comes from the Fountain of the Virgin (The Gihon Spring). He would know that the double pool that is now at St. Anne's is not a spring pool. Thus no stirring of the water. Perhaps the double pool indicates, at St Anne's, that the gJohn writer is conflating two pools into the one pool of his story. i.e. the Gihon Spring that feeds Jerusalem life giving water is being linked to the miracle of the paralyzed man at the Sheep's Gate pool. (as Carrier has pointed out re gJohn 10.7.9. 'So again Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and bandits; but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate'.)

Thus, the double pool now at St. Anne's is not the pool from which springs life giving miracles - that pool is not the Pool of Bethesda. Thus, the Pool of Bethesada is a literary construct for whatever symbolic intention the gJohn writer had in mind. If the name Bethesada is linked to Bethsaida - then a whole new ball game emerges....

So, question remains re gJohn being written pre 70 c.e. That question, in regard to gJohn 5.2, rests upon whether or not the 5 porticoes that seem to be connected to the pool at St. Anne's were destroyed during the war. However, the question of gJohn being pre 70 c.e. is a far bigger question than that revolving around gJohn 5.2. and the 5 porticoes of the double pool at St. Anne's.
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