Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

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outhouse
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by outhouse »

Bernard Muller wrote: some of them resurfaced in the city years later, as part of a community whose proto-Christian beliefs were still very compatible with orthodox Judaism.


Cordially, Bernard

They were only compatible for Hellenistic Judaism.

Our sources here are rhetorical in nature, how much do you trust Paul and Acts, maybe more then I do.


Anyway, that's what I argued here (with evidence), among other places
Credible evidence?

Rhetoric and fiction has more plausibility, then Aramaic Galileans resurfacing who probably never viewed him as a Messiah, after witnessing John teach him everything. It would have been blasphemy for pious Galileans to view him as a messiah.

We can get into the messianic secret in our earliest text if you would like to debate his inner circle viewed him as a messiah.

AND we can also think why would illiterate Aramaic fishermen bumkins from backwaters, want to meet a man who went out and was known to butcher Christians?
John2
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by John2 »

Bernard,

Two expressions come to my mind as I consider your point of view. One is that you can't be a little pregnant. You either are or you aren't. And if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

The author of James describes himself as a slave of the Lord Jesus Christ. He arguably teaches against Paul. He anticipates the End Time with "door" imagery (5:9) similar to the door imagery associated with the End Time and/or Jesus in the gospels (Mk. 13:29; Mt. 24:33), Rev. 3:20 and Hegesippus (which we've talked about on this forum before). There are similarities between some sayings in the Letter of James and Q. So to me it is Christian. We at least agree that it's a "little" Christian because it mentions Jesus Christ and exalts him as Lord alongside of God, but to me that's like saying someone is a little pregnant.

As for talking like a duck, that is how the Letter of James sounds to me, as does the account in Hegesippus, which not only places him in a position of leadership of the church, it has him speak favorably of Jesus and use Son of Man imagery and other things I hear Christians talk about like the "resurrection or in one’s coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James" (EH 2:23). So what if no one calls him a Christian. Maybe the word didn't exist in his time and place (cf. Acts 11:26). But he sounds like one and his memory was preserved by Christians.

I don't think there were two kinds of "churches in Judea," one that was "in Christ" and one that wasn't but was nonetheless very interested in and associated with Jesus. And if there were then I don't see any significant difference between them.
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outhouse
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by outhouse »

Forgot to add, there was no orthodox Judaism during this period. When you make a claim of orthodoxy, it is something you really need to define if you want us to understand what you mean.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to outhouse,
They were only compatible for Hellenistic Judaism.
These diaspora Jews were not considered heretical as compared to Galilean Jews. Even if I think their beliefs were wider that of those of the more traditional rural Jews of Palestine.
Rhetoric and fiction has more plausibility, then Aramaic Galileans resurfacing who probably never viewed him as a Messiah, after witnessing John teach him everything. It would have been blasphemy for pious Galileans to view him as a messiah.
This is what my blog post is all about: these Galileans never saw Jesus as a Messiah, before and after his death.
AND we can also think why would illiterate Aramaic fishermen bumkins from backwaters, want to meet a man who went out and was known to butcher Christians?
But that's what happened: after his conversion, none of these Galileans wanted to see him, except for Peter & James. And that was 3 years after Paul converted.

Cordially, Bernard
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to TedM,
All good points as usual. Perhaps you addressed this elsewhere, but it seems to me that Paul would have either not associated at all with the 'pillars' or would have mentioned that they didn't believe Jesus had been resurrected if that was the case. He had ample opportunity to do that every time he mentioned or alluded to them in all of his letters, and for him that was what Christianity was all about. What are your thoughts about that?
Why would Paul say, about the highly esteemed (even by Paul's Gentile Christians) Church of Jerusalem and its leaders, that those did not believe in the resurrection? That's was of no advantage for him. As a matter of fact, that would go against him, because Paul was on shaky ground about his credentials as apostle and because his "revelations" from above ("proving" that Christ resurrected) were doubted.
As far as Peter and James are concerned, they were not saying Jesus did not resurrect or was not Christ. They just were mysterious & silent about it. Why? Because that would go against the beliefs of all Christians which through collections were supporting the Church of Jerusalem. You don't bite the hand which feed you!

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
John2
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by John2 »

Bernard,

You wrote:

"And I never said Hegesippus presented James as being not a Christian. He certainly tried very hard to do so!"

I got the impression that you did from the brief statement about Hegesippus in your opening link:

"Despite being written in the 2nd century, and greatly embellished with many fictional elements, the story of James' execution reveals a long-lasting tradition about James, the brother of Jesus, not being a Christian."

I think I understand your nuance better now though. You see Hegesippus as claiming James for Christianity even though he wasn't really a Christian, or only barely so if that, when you examine the evidence. He seems Christian to me though.

But your approach made me take a similar look at what Hegesippus says about the (other, if you like) descendants of Jesus, and I noticed that he does not call Judas' grandsons Christians, even though they became revered leaders of the churches after their interrogation by Domitian (EH 3.20). They only admit to being descendants of David, and it is only Domitian (like the scribes and Pharisees in James' time) who brings up the topic of "Christ and His Kingdom," not Judas's grandsons, and they answer him in a similar way as James had, that it was "in heaven, and would be established at the end of the world, when He would come in glory to judge the quick and the dead and give every man payment according to his conduct."

So according to this account, the grandsons of Judas could also be seen as not really being Christians, or only barely so, because they never say that they are and say essentially the same thing that James did about Jesus, and "let's notice NO parable, NO Jesus as a teacher, NO 'sacrifice', NO Jesus in heaven, NO future resurrections, NO Son of God," which you see as evidence that James wasn't a Christian.

The same goes for the account of James' successor Symeon, the "cousin of the Lord" (EH 3.32). It only says that he was *charged* with being a descendant of David and a Christian, not that he was one, nor does it give any indication of "Jesus as a teacher" (etc.). Were Symeon and the grandsons of Judas Christians, or was Hegesippus only trying to present them that way?
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DCHindley
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by DCHindley »

Bernard Muller wrote:I have a new blog post on a key point for my case. Feel free to comment at will.

Title: Did the early Galilean pillars of the Church of Jerusalem (Peter, John & Jesus' brother James) become Christians?

Teaser: There is an abundance of evidence and clues leading to a NO answer, despite the effort by the early Christian authors to show otherwise.

URL: http://historical-jesus.info/108.html
Bernard,

I can agree with you that early Christian authors such as Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria and Origen were eager to claim James, at least, as one of their own.
Hegesippus, Five Books [on the History of the Church, via Eusebius of Caesarea, History of the Church 2.23.3-19
3) ... Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes as follows:
4) James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the just by all from the times of the Lord to the present day, for there were many that bore the name of James. ...
8) Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the memoirs, asked him: What is the gate of Jesus? And he replied that it was the savior.
9) On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in the coming of one to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.
10) Therefore, when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. ...
16) So they ... said to each other: Let us stone James the just. And they began to stone him, ...
19) ... And James was so marvelous a one, and so acclaimed among all the rest for his justice, that the sensible ones of the Jews opined that this [stoning/clubbing of James] was the cause of the siege of Jerusalem, which happened immediately after his martyrdom for no other reason than their daring act against him.
Hegesippus, Five Books, via Eusebius of Caesarea, History of the Church, 4.22.4
4) [Hegesippus] also describes the beginnings of the heresies which arose in his time in the following words:
4b) And after James the just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon, the son of the uncle of the Lord, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord. Therefore they called the church a virgin, for it was not yet corrupted by vain discourses.
Clement of Alexandria, Hypotyposeis (lost), via Eusebius, History of the Church 2.1.3-6
3) But Clement in the sixth book of his Hypotyposeis writes as follows: For they say that Peter and James and John after the ascension of the savior, as if also preferred by the Lord, did not strive for glory, but rather elected James the just to be bishop of Jerusalem.
4) And the same [Clement] in the seventh book of the same work says also these things concerning him: The Lord after the resurrection delivered knowledge to James the just and to John and to Peter, and they delivered it to the rest of the apostles, and the rest of the apostles to the seventy, of whom Barnabas was one.
5) But there were two Jameses, one being the just one, who was cast down from the pinnacle and was beaten unto death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded.
6) Paul indeed makes mention of the same just one, writing: But I did not see any other of the apostles except James the brother of the Lord
Origen, Against Celsus 1.47b-d
b) Now he [Josephus] himself, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put Christ to death, who was a prophet, nevertheless says, being albeit against his will not far from the truth, that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the just, who was a brother of Jesus called Christ, the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice.
c) [[In an aside by Origen, he says]Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine.]
d) If, then, he says that it was on account of James that the desolation of Jerusalem was made to overtake the Jews, how should it not be more in accordance with reason to say that it happened on account of Jesus Christ? Of his divinity so many churches are witnesses, composed of those who have been convened from a flood of sins and have joined themselves to the creator, and who refer all their actions to his good pleasure.
Origen, On Matthew 13.55
a) And this James is the one whom Paul says he saw in the epistle to the Galatians, saying: But I did not see any other of the apostles except James the brother of the Lord.
b) And to so great a reputation among the people for righteousness did this James rise that Flavius Josephus, who wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in twenty books, when wishing to exhibit the cause why the people suffered so great misfortunes that even the temple was razed to the ground, said that these things happened to them in accordance with the wrath of God in consequence of the things which they had dared to do against James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ.
c) And the wonderful thing is that, though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the righteousness of James was so great;
d) and he says that the people thought that they had suffered these things because of James. And Jude wrote an epistle short in lines but full of the healthy words of heaven; in the preface he has said: Jude, servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James. But concerning Joseph and Simon we have nothing to relate.
Clearly, Clement thought that the Cephas in Galatians was same as Peter. However, Clement and Origen's connection of this James to Jesus is based on Galatians:
1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days.
1:19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the brother of the Lord.
Now I had come to the conclusion (completely independently of this evidence under discussion) that the Cephas, James & John which Paul claims to have conferred with were not followers of Jesus but rather priests in Jerusalem in charge of managing the activity of financial apostles. Paul was pitching to them his idea that God-fearing gentiles could be considered part of greater Israel if these priests would accept their freewill offerings, which Paul hoped to collect as a financial apostle. This is all kind of speculative, based on known practices of later times (the Jewish Patriarch in Galilee was permitted by the Roman authorities to accept freewill offerings to help fellow Judeans, collected by folks called apostles) which I believe were also likely practiced in pre-war times.
From Josephus' testimony [Ant. XIV, 112-113] we understand that the Asian Jews used to collect their sacred monies even before Caesar’s time, and this is confirmed by Cicero, who mentions four cities of Asia — Apamea, Laodicea, Adramyttium and Pergamum — where the Jews deposited the money meant to reach the Temple of Jerusalem in the sixties BCE (Pro Flacco, 28, 68).

On this occasion, Cicero observes that “every year it was customary to send gold to Jerusalem on the order of the Jews from Italy and from all our provinces” (Pro Flacco, 28,67). This statement provides two important pieces of information. One, the Jews could send their contributions to Jerusalem from all the places where they lived, ex Italia el ex omnibus nostris provinciis, even before Caesar’s time. Two, the expression “customary” used by Cicero in this context, cum aurum ludaeorum nomine quotannis... exportari soleret (Pro Flacco, 28, 67), implies that this was not, in Cicero’s times, a formal legal right. Unlike Josephus. Cicero was a lawyer and the use of the verb soleret in this context is therefore highly meaningful, inasmuch as it suggests that the right to send the Jewish monies to Jerusalem was not an official, legal one, but rather a de facto recognition.

Jewish Rights in the Roman World: The Greek and Roman Documents Quoted by Josephus Flavius, by Miriam Pucci Ben Zeev (1998).
https://books.google.com/books?id=O7mL4 ... 68&f=false
The money was ultimately returned to the Judeans on appeal to the Roman authorities, but Flaccus, defended by Cicero was exonerated as "just doing his job."
(Josephus, Ant 14:110-111) And let no one wonder that there was so much wealth in our temple, since all the Jews throughout the habitable earth, and those who worshipped God, nay, even those of Asia and Europe, sent their contributions to it, and this from very ancient times.
111 Nor is the size of these sums without its attestation; nor is that greatness owing to our vanity, as raising it without ground to so great a height: but there are many witnesses to it, and particularly Strabo of Cappadocia
Getting back to your assertion, I am not so willing to take the books of the NT at face value as you seem to be. IMHO the phrase "brother of the Lord" in 1:19b is later interpretation by my proposed Christian editor, along with 2:7b-8:
2:7b just as Peter had been entrusted with the good news to the circumcised 2:8 (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles)
Note the change from Cephas to Peter, as the Pauline tradition is adopted, and adapted, into the Christian tradition.

So, in other words, the Peter, James & John, disciples (actually relatives) of Jesus, are melded with the Cephas, James and John of Galatians, who were not the same animals at all.

But, that's just me ...

DCH
TedM
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by TedM »

Bernard,

It appears from your answer that you do not believe Paul nor James and his group had much integrity, and they were both hypocrites with regard to their own claimed religious values (ie honesty). I may have my blinders on with regard to all that, but thanks for the explanation.
Bernard Muller wrote:to TedM,
All good points as usual. Perhaps you addressed this elsewhere, but it seems to me that Paul would have either not associated at all with the 'pillars' or would have mentioned that they didn't believe Jesus had been resurrected if that was the case. He had ample opportunity to do that every time he mentioned or alluded to them in all of his letters, and for him that was what Christianity was all about. What are your thoughts about that?
Why would Paul say, about the highly esteemed (even by Paul's Gentile Christians) Church of Jerusalem and its leaders, that those did not believe in the resurrection? That's was of no advantage for him. As a matter of fact, that would go against him, because Paul was on shaky ground about his credentials as apostle and because his "revelations" from above ("proving" that Christ resurrected) were doubted.
As far as Peter and James are concerned, they were not saying Jesus did not resurrect or was not Christ. They just were mysterious & silent about it. Why? Because that would go against the beliefs of all Christians which through collections were supporting the Church of Jerusalem. You don't bite the hand which feed you!

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Bernard Muller wrote:I have a new blog post on a key point for my case. Feel free to comment at will.

Title: Did the early Galilean pillars of the Church of Jerusalem (Peter, John & Jesus' brother James) become Christians?

Teaser: There is an abundance of evidence and clues leading to a NO answer, despite the effort by the early Christian authors to show otherwise.

URL: http://historical-jesus.info/108.html

Cordially, Bernard
Your table here:

http://historical-jesus.info/48.html

Has only "The Kingdom will..." "come soon," "be on earth," and "Submit to the Mosaic Law" under Nazarenes.

Is that all you think we can say?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Bernard Muller
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Re: Peter & James & the Church of Jerusalem not Christian?

Post by Bernard Muller »

To Peter
Your table here:

http://historical-jesus.info/48.html

Has only "The Kingdom will..." "come soon," "be on earth," and "Submit to the Mosaic Law" under Nazarenes.

Is that all you think we can say?
Yes, according to my research, that's about it. I got a NO for them in all the other elements of my table.
I can add here that they regarded Jesus as a dead prophet, who talked about the Kingdom will come soon (on earth), and will benefit only the poor Jews.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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