The Propaganda War Against Mythicism [Vridar]

[stephan happy huller]

Bravo! But the error goes beyond this guy and his pal. I think a lot of mythicists can't decide whether the gospel was a 'myth' or that Jesus was merely supernatural

[MrMacSon]

As attractive as the mythist theory is, and as creative as the radicals are in their theories, there is no actual basis anywhere for an argument for an ancient belief in a mythical Jesus unless one simply takes pieces out of context - i.e. deconstructs out of context the texts COMPRISING the UNIFIED SET of the official canon of the New Testament........

This is not actually correct Duvduv because there does exist an actual basis for an expressed written belief in a mythical "non-flesh" Jesus. Firstly within the canonical books there are the letters of John which warns against such a belief, and states that such a belief was widespread. This has been dealt with already in this thread. Secondly there are a number of the non canonical books in which there are clear statements which may be interpreted as espousing such a belief. Some of these are listed on the WIKI page about Docetism

What is with this persisent confusion of docetism with mythicism? Docetists believed that there was a Jesus and that his was a real presence in this world, but his earthly body was an illusion.

Docetists believed in a spiritual non-human Jesus: that sounds pretty mythical to me.

[Leucius Charinus]

What is with this persisent confusion of docetism with mythicism? Docetists believed that there was a Jesus and that his was a real presence in this world, but his earthly body was an illusion.

... from the eighteenth century onwards, there have been attempts to insist that Jesus did not even "seem" to exist,
and that all tales of his appearance upon the earth were pure fiction.

What is with this persistent confusion of fiction with historicism? Before the 18th century dissention against the officially promulgated reality of the "Jesus Story" were punished by torture and death. How has belief been conditioned? By capital punishment. Grow balls and wake up.

[spin]

What is with this persisent confusion of docetism with mythicism? Docetists believed that there was a Jesus and that his was a real presence in this world, but his earthly body was an illusion.

... from the eighteenth century onwards, there have been attempts to insist that Jesus did not even "seem" to exist,
and that all tales of his appearance upon the earth were pure fiction.

What is with this persistent confusion of fiction with historicism? Before the 18th century dissention against the official reality of the "Jesus Story" were punished by torture and death.

- Fruit Loops? Sure. Here ya go.

[stephan happy huller]

Docetists believed in a spiritual non-human Jesus: that sounds pretty mythical to me.

But this is the problem with many mythicists. They can't see beyond there own frame of reference. Lets suppose that 100% of church goers believe in God. Just about 100% of those believers believe that God can visit people. And God is certainly supernatural. So please get out of your own echo chamber. Since all gods are supernatural and all believers believe not only in supernatural beings but the capacity of these supernatural to visit people - indeed that they certainly have visited humanity in the past and will continue to do so in the future - it is just downright blindness which leads mythicists to believe that these experiences are 'mythical' in the sense of being 'ahistorical.' My step grandmother used to set a dinner plate for my grandfather until she died. I don't know why she did it. But it certainly wasn't because she understood his presence to be 'mythical.'

[spin]

Docetists believed that there was a Jesus and that his was a real presence in this world, but his earthly body was an illusion.

Docetists believed in a spiritual non-human Jesus:

Myths don't interact with this world.

that sounds pretty mythical to me.

There might be need of disambiguating the content of "mythical".

(Noting Genghiz has just had a go.)

[Leucius Charinus]

Docetists believed in a spiritual non-human Jesus: that sounds pretty mythical to me.

But this is the problem with many mythicists. They can't see beyond there own frame of reference. Lets suppose that 100% of church goers believe in God. Just about 100% of those believers believe that God can visit people. And God is certainly supernatural. So please get out of your own echo chamber. Since all gods are supernatural and all believers believe not only in supernatural beings but the capacity of these supernatural to visit people - indeed that they certainly have visited humanity in the past and will continue to do so in the future .....'

Frames of reference? Divinities visiting humanity?

Here is how the Stoics (and Platonists) viewed the situation:

"Nevertheless he has placed by every man a guardian,
every man's Daimon, to whom he has committed the care of the man,
a guardian who never sleeps, is never deceived.

For to what better and more careful guardian could He have entrusted each of us?
When, then, you have shut the doors and made darkness within,
remember never to say that you are alone, for you are not;
but God is within, and your Daimon is within, and what need
have they of light to see what you are doing?

To this God you ought to swear an oath just as the soldiers do to Caesar. .....

But the Stoics and the Platonists did not enforce adherence to a centralised monotheistic religion by the sword,
even though they did have, it is true (the Platonists anyway), a series of canonical books and a lineage of apostolic succession.


~

[Leucius Charinus]

Myths don't interact with this world.

Tell that to Joseph John Campbell. ~~

[spin]

Myths don't interact with this world.

Tell that to Joseph John Campbell. ~~

- Munch, munch... What's he doing now?
- I think he's rooting around in the daisy patch.
- Oh. Muffin?
- Naaa. Gotta watch the waist.

[MrMacSon]

Docetists believed in a spiritual non-human Jesus: that sounds pretty mythical to me.

But this is the problem with many mythicists. They can't see beyond there own frame of reference. Lets suppose that 100% of church goers believe in God.

OK.

Just about 100% of those believers believe that God can visit people. And God is certainly supernatural.

OK & OK

Since all gods are supernatural and all believers believe not only in supernatural beings but the capacity of these supernatural to visit people

OK

- indeed that they certainly have visited humanity in the past and will continue to do so in the future -

visited??

it is just downright blindness which leads mythicists to believe that these experiences are 'mythical' in the sense of being 'ahistorical.'

err, No, No & No.

mythical does not equal ahistorical

mythical = supernatural

supernatural stories are mythical stories ie. myths

There is a history of myths.