Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

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DCHindley
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by DCHindley »

outhouse wrote:
DCHindley wrote:I get an uneasy feeling when I hear the name Paul connected with the art of Rhetoric.
DCH

in my class at Harvard, they spent a day on Pauls rhetoric prose.

There is no debate that is how he was trained to write.

To what levels did his community pervert their artistic freedom, however is on a sentence by sentence basis.
Have you read Rhetoric and Galatians: Assessing an Approach to Paul's Epistle (Society for New Testament Studies Monograph Series) Hardcover – January 28, 1999, by Philip H. Kern?

There is a review of a 2007 reprint, here:
http://www.nnrh.dk/RR/rr-pdf/71.12-16.pdf

A copy of the 1999 edition is at
https://www.scribd.com/doc/223850639/Ph ... 999#scribd

There was an online seminar with him on one of the now defunct Rhetoric oriented e-lists a while back, but I cannot seem to find any archive of it.

DCH
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DCHindley
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

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A while ago Mark D. Nanos published The Irony of Galatians (2002) that touched on Paul's likely use of Rhetoric in this book. That same year, he edited a book containing 23 essays from the likes of Hans Dieter Betz, James D. Hester, James D. G. Dunn, Paula Fredrickson, Philip S. Esler and of course Mark himself, called The Galatians Debate.

If you can order them still, I recommend doing so.

I'll try to summarize what I cam about the kind of Latin style Rhetoric some say Paul is said to have employed.

DCH
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

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Udo Schnelle wrote:(2) We may confidently state that in the early Christian urban congregations more than 50 per cent of the members could read and write at an acceptable level.
Jonathan Clark Borland, on the "New Testament Textual Criticism" Facebook group:
For that statistic Schnelle cites p. 94 of R. Baumgarten's article "Elementar- und Grammatikunterricht: Griechenland," pp. 89-100 in Handbuch der Bildung und Erziehung in der Antike (ed. Christes, Klein, Lüth; Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 2006), which apparently says that in ancient cities probably most of the children went to elementary school, and when the very different grades of reading and writing abilities are included in the estimate, it may be assumed that around 30-50 percent of the population of middle and larger sized cities had an elementary knowledge of reading and writing. Then Schnelle lists his seven reasons in favor of a relatively higher "Alphabetisierung" in the early churches (anyways more than 50%) in comparison to the general population.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
outhouse
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by outhouse »

DCHindley wrote: There is a review of a 2007 reprint, here:
http://www.nnrh.dk/RR/rr-pdf/71.12-16.pdf


DCH
Thanks brother, reading it now
outhouse
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Re: Das frühe Christentum und die Bildung

Post by outhouse »

DCHindley wrote:Have you read Rhetoric and Galatians:



DCH
No I have not.

It seems from the review no answer is really solved here and a rhetorician is required, and then there is still debate.

I agree that rhetorical criticism is required, and I don't think anyone can classify exactly what is rhetoric and what is not, moderation is required.


But we should still keep a rhetorical lens as it was the prose used for the most part, and pauls fictive descriptions are more then enough evidence for me. Even if one cannot prove anything here, I see plenty of rhetorical prose.
Clive
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Clive »

I would argue that Paul is continually using rhetoric - he could not help it - it was how he was taught. And if it is correct the followers of this new superstitio were also highly educated, they would have believed they were spreading the new truth through rhetorical skills.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... e-and-Rome

In this experience at Syracuse, certain identifiable characteristics become prototypal: the rhetor, or speaker, is a pleader; his discourse is argumentative; and members of his audience are participants in and judges of a controversy. Later, in Athens, these characteristics began to aggregate to themselves some serious intellectual issues.

In Athens early teachers of rhetoric were known as Sophists. These men did not simply teach methods of argumentation; rather, they offered rhetoric as a central educational discipline and, like modern rhetoricians, insisted upon its usefulness in both analysis and genesis. With the growth of Athenian democracy and higher systematized education, the Sophists became very powerful and influential. Today the word sophistic refers to a shabby display of learning or to specious reasoning; it refers, consequently, to an image of the Sophists that resulted from the attacks upon them led by such reformers as Plato. The ideal rhetoric proposed by Socrates in Plato’s dialogue the Phaedrus, however, is itself not unlike the ideal sought by the Sophists in general, Isocrates in particular. Though the Platonic-Socratic ideal is more specialized in its focus on creating discourse, nonetheless, like the Sophistic ideal, it sought a union of verbal skills with learning and wisdom. Specifically, Platonic-Socratic rhetoric became a means of putting into practice the wisdom one acquires in philosophy. In this way Plato and Socrates resolved one of the most serious intellectual issues surrounding the subject: the relationship between truth and rhetorical effectiveness. The resolution, of course, presupposes and maintains a bifurcation between the two.

Aristotle, too, presupposed and maintained the same division between truth, which was knowable to varying degrees of certainty, and verbal skills, which for Aristotle were primarily useful in assisting truth to prevail in a controversy. But Aristotle lived in a world different from Plato’s, one that was closer to the present in the premium it placed upon literacy and upon those patterns of thought that literacy encourages. The literate function of Aristotle’s brilliance at recording and categorizing is well captured in Donne’s phrase, “Nature’s Secretary.” Aristotle’s Rhetoric both recorded contemporary practice and sought its reform through fitting it into its proper category among the arts. One of the masterstrokes of Aristotle’s thought on the subject is his teaching that rhetoric itself is not a productive art of making but is an art of doing, embodying a power which is employed in certain kinds of speaking. Further evidence of his brilliance on the subject is his division of speaking into the forensic, the deliberative, and the epideictic and of persuasive appeals into the ethical, the emotional, and the logical. His division of speaking into three kinds reflects his efforts to distinguish rhetoric and its counterpart, dialectics, from philosophy and science. Rhetoric and dialectics, he felt, are concerned with probable matters, in which there are several roads to truth; philosophy and science, on the other hand, are concerned with demonstrable matters, in which the roads are fewer but the truth more certain. In dividing persuasive appeals into three kinds, Aristotle indicated an unmistakable preference for the logical. This preference has been interpreted variously as a result of Aristotle’s naïve assumption about the rationality of most audiences and as an attempt to reform the emotionally charged rhetoric of his contemporaries. In discussing elements of style, Aristotle treated metaphor, perhaps the major figure of speech, in a way that was to plague rhetoricians and poets for centuries. He describes it not as an instrument of thought but as an ornamentation, an adornment that at best serves the functions of clarity and vividness. The effect is further reflection of the principle noted earlier: for Aristotle the truth with which rhetoric is concerned is not demonstrable. It is, moreover, detachable from the forms of argument, and it can be tested by such analytical means as dialectics, which is the counterpart of rhetoric but which does not have what Aristotle viewed as rhetoric’s cloying concerns with that beast of many heads, the heterogeneous audience composed of experts and laymen alike.

The Sophistic doctrine that rhetoric should be the central discipline in the educational scheme had a long history, rising to its fullest statement in the writings of Quintilian in Rome of the 1st century ad. By the age of Quintilian three intellectual issues had become firmly fixed within the orbit of rhetoric. Two of these were consciously faced: (1) the relationship between truth and verbal expression and (2) the difficulties of achieving intellectual or artistic integrity while communicating with a heterogeneous audience. In a sense, both of these issues were not faced at all but dodged, as they had been in the past, with the implicit assumption that wisdom and eloquence were not necessarily synonymous and that truth and integrity were ultimately dependent upon the character of the speaker. The orator, according to Cato the Elder, must be a good man skilled in speaking. Through the writings of Cicero, the ancient Roman orator of the 1st century bc whom later ages were to adulate both for his statesmanship and for his prose style, Cato’s doctrine was spread in the Western world for centuries. Quintilian’s tediously prescriptive Institutio oratoria is built on Cato’s thesis: it offers an educational program for producing generations of Ciceronian statesmen. But for all its importance and influence, the work never found its time so far as being used as a text for political leaders to follow. Quintilian’s program was impossible to achieve in the age of tyranny in which he lived, and it was impracticable in the Renaissance.
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Clive »

The conclusion of the EB article notes very powerful theological reasons why the role of rhetoric would be downplayed. Possibly it still is.
Thus, the function of rhetoric appeared to be the systematic production of certain kinds of discourse, but the significance of this now clearly productive art became increasingly dubious in ages when governments did not allow public deliberation on social or political issues or when the most significant speaking was done by church authorities whose training had been capped by logic and theology.
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Clive »

There would seem to be a very strong argument to remove biblical studies from theology departments and place them where they belong - with classicists!
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Clive »

Something I may have missed - are not the classic Jewish educational methods treated as rhetoric? Would not the followers of a religion based on books be highly literate?

What was that about certain ethnicities and nobel prizes? How long has that been developing?

Protestantism is understood as related to the printing press - maybe Judaism and xianity did have very high levels of underlying literacy.
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Re: Udo Schnelle: Early Christianity and Culture

Post by Clive »

And if literacy of tenant farmers was a low as asserted above, who wrote all that graffitti at Hadrian's wall?
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