Jesus crucified on a X

[Peter Kirby]

My untrained eye sees these as being functionally equivalent, so far as the hanging of the body is concerned. The only difference here concerns the (essentially decorative) top of the alleged ✝shape, which top is not connected to the body anywhere. The body's weight does not change depending on the shape of the object to which it becomes attached. Does, perhaps, this emperor have no clothes?

No scientist here - watch the video - it seems there is considerable difference re the positioning the body requires in the T that contributes to an earlier death.

That wasn't the part being commented on. (... I didn't think I needed to put an ellipsis in the quote above... there, now there is one... for you 'speed' "readers" ...)

My comment on that part was already stated: " causing health problems is sort of the point here?! "

Animation of the T cross position in the video.

Tried to find it. I ended up watching 2 minutes of commercials and hearing a little 5-second snippet with the phrase "Simcha Jacobovici" in it.

Videos are pretty useless for information retrieval, and they are not very good compared to print in most other respects as well (including, for whatever reason--can you guess? perhaps the need to be more 'commercial'?--the quality of the information presented and the level of detail provided by way of support and documentation). I'll pass on watching this 42+ minute thingy. Thanks.

I got lucky, checked the other screen, and saw the part where they took a guy and put him on a cross.

They said that they would be nailed "from behind and above" to prevent the arms from detaching.

They said he would suffocate. Then the narrator said that his heart couldn't keep up (I'm no doctor, but that's a different claim). But we already know that crucifixion victims would suffocate; that's the method of death here, by asphyxiation. Of course they say that he would suffocate "in minutes." They don't do the experiment on the guy to find out whether that's true... (Unless the requirements of filming means they did, and they lied about it? LOL...) They also don't do the experiment to find out exactly how long you would survive on a St. Andrew's Cross...

Simcha draws on two parts of the Gospels as evidence; first, 'a branch of hyssop,' which apparently could reach because the body was lower down on a St. Andrew's Cross [in the Gospel of John]; second, that the centurion [Pilate?] was surprised at how quickly he died [in the Gospel of Mark].

[maryhelena]

Tried to find it. I ended up watching 2 minutes of commercials and hearing a little 5-second snippet with the phrase "Simcha Jacobovici" in it.

Videos are pretty useless for information retrieval, and they are not very good compared to print in most other respects as well (including, for whatever reason--can you guess? perhaps the need to be more 'commercial'?--the quality of the information presented and the level of detail provided by way of support and documentation). I'll pass on watching this 42+ minute thingy. Thanks.

I got lucky, checked the other screen, and saw the part where they took a guy and put him on a cross.

They said that they would be nailed "from behind and above" to prevent the arms from detaching.

They said he would suffocate. Then the narrator said that his heart couldn't keep up (I'm no doctor, but that's a different claim). But we already know that crucifixion victims would suffocate; that's the method of death here, by asphyxiation. Of course they say that he would suffocate "in minutes." They don't do the experiment on the guy to find out whether that's true... (Unless the requirements of filming means they did, and they lied about it? LOL...)

Video link:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2d40n ... ion_school

Video also on youtube I believe - but not for the UK. I was able to download it from another site - but a slow free download that took hours - but worth it as the sound is excellent.....it's also available to buy on amazon....

[John T]

"...my position is that it is only history that has potential for breaking the dead-lock between the historicists and the ahistoricists. i.e. the gospel figure of Jesus was not a historical figure..."...maryhelena

Who says there is a dead-lock between the historicists and ahistoricists?
The evidence for a historical Jesus is overwhelming.

Your tactic to put a spot light on the failure of ancient history to shine on minor details does not change the fact of history that: Jesus existed.

As far as the crucifixion of Jesus being central to the gospel story, well... you once again missed the bigger picture, which is, Jesus was believed to be the messiah by his followers.

Perhaps your time would be better spent on explaining why Jesus could not be the messiah instead of the preposterous claim that he never existed in the first place.

Still be as that may, for a political analysis of the historical Jesus I recommend; "The Jesus Dynasty" by James D. Tabor

Sincerely,
John T

I'm curious, does that mean you actually considered my point to be relevant or just that you want Peter to send my post to the corn field because it points out your major flaw?

Perhaps both?

[maryhelena]

As an aside:

While Israel continues in debate over the bones found in the Abba Cave - are they the bones of the last Hasmonean King, Antigonus - or not. England begins the 5 day burial ceremonies for the bones of Richard III. This morning the coffin is going on public display in Leicester Cathedral prior to a final service on Thursday.

Britain prepares for the burial of King Richard III, 1452-1485.

In August 2012, the University of Leicester began a search for the remains of this King who had been killed in Battle. The remains were eventually discovered in Leicester's Greyfriars Car Park. Once the remains were found DNA testing began.

Yesterday's procession through the streets of Leicester to the Cathedral.



The coffin.



Artist impression of the final resting place.

''The King's final resting place will feature a large block of Swaledale stone with a deeply incised cross, above a dark plinth of dark Kilkenny stone, carved with his name, birth and death dates, motto and coat of arms.''



The cost - around two and a half million pounds....

And the bones in the Abba Cave.....??

[arnoldo]

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Are there other verses where the author(s) of the gospel accounts have Jesus predicting his manner of death?

[outhouse]

Simcha draws on two parts of the Gospels as evidence
.

The whole show was embarrassing to watch, they reached so far into imagination based on how the bone was attached to the rust.

There was little that was worth remembering or even worth being used in the future.

[Peter Kirby]

We have more information on the general subject.

The only thing which seems to be fairly certain here is that all four forms--crux commissa, crux immissa, crux decussata, and the upright post without a transverse beam--do seem to be attested. We don't need to worry about any special kind of absolute consistency on the part of torturers and executioners.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ry=crux-cn
The mode of punishment is too well known to need much description. Scourging, as with Roman capital punishments in general, usually preceded it (Liv. 22.13, 33.36; Cic. in Verr. 5.62, § 161 ff.). Three kinds of crosses were in common use: the crux commissa, or T shape; the crux immissa, with a projection at the top to which was affixed the titulus, setting forth the crime of the sufferer ... and the crux decussata, in the shape of an X (St. Andrew's cross). The word crux is also applied to the single stake used in impalement: the latter process is alluded to by Seneca in two passages, but, as he is speaking of death by torture in general, it may be doubted in the absence of direct evidence whether this was a Roman custom (Cons. ad Marciam, 20.3, where crucifixion with the head downward is mentioned; Ep. 14.5). The upright post is called stipes, the transverse beam patibulum; and it was this, rather than the entire instrument, which the criminal carried to the place of execution (Plut. de Sera Num. Vind. p. 554 B; Artemid. Oneirocr. 2.61; Plautus, Mostell. 1.1, 53, and ap. Non. s. v. patibulum). It was impossible that the whole weight of the body should rest upon the nails; hence there was a piece of wood projecting from the stipes on which the sufferer sat, or rather rode (κέρας ἐφ᾽ ᾦ ἐποχοῦνται οἱ σταυρούμενοι, Just. Mart. Dial.c. Tryph. 91; sedilis excessus, Tertull. adv. Nat. 1.12; cf. Iren. adv. Haer. 1.12). The expression acuta si sedeam cruce, in the famous lines of Maecenas ap. Sen. Ep. 101, probably refers to this support, and not, as Lipsius thought, to impalement (see Archd. Farrar in Dict. of the Bible, s. v. Cross). when it was wanting, the body was probably sustained by ropes: the combination of ropes with nails is mentioned by Pliny (fragmentum clavi a cruce and spartum e cruce as charms, H. N. 28.46) and Hilary ( “colligantium funium vincula et adactorum clavorum vulnera,” de Trin. 10). The martyrologies contain accounts of sufferers bound to the cross without the use of nails, and left to die of hunger and exhaustion; when it is added that in some instances they survived nine days, we must be allowed to disbelieve. Tying to the cross is also mentioned as an Egyptian custom by Xenophon Ephesius (4.2), but his romance, apart from its late date, is of no historical authority; and there does not appear to be any sufficient evidence for the practice in classical times. The criminal was stripped of his clothes,--the cloth round the loins, as to which the Christian tradition is constant, seems to have been exceptional,--and usually hoisted on to the cross after it had been set up. Sometimes he was stretched upon it on the ground, and then lifted with it; but the former method was the commoner, and hence the phrases cruci suffigere, in crucem agere or tollere, occur oftener than cruci affigere. The well-known breaking of the legs to hasten death is alluded to by Plautus (Poen. 4.2, 64) and Cicero (Cic. Phil. 13.12.27). The dead body was generally left hanging on the cross, to be devoured by birds and beasts: the feet were but little raised above the ground (not as in most pictures), and it was not out of the reach of the latter (Hor. Ep. 1.16, 48; Juv. 14.77; Artemid. Oneirocr. 2.53). Sepulture was therefore forbidden, and a soldier set to watch the corpse (Petron. 111, 112). The place for these executions was always outside the walls of cities: at rome it was the Campus Esquilinus, to the cast of the city, part of which was afterwards occupied by the gardens of Maecenas. The Sessorium and the Sestertium, sometimes mentioned in this connexion, were probably two distinct spots in the Campus Esquilinus: the former on the Lateran Hill near the basilica of Sta. Croce in Gerusalemme, where there are some remains of a building traditionally called Sessorium (Schol. Cruq. on Hor. Epod. 5, 100, and Sat. 2.8, 8; Orell. ad loc.; Burn, Rome and the Campagna, pp. 218, 226); the latter at some place distant 2 1/2 miles (whence the name Sestertium) from the Esquiline gate in the Servian wall, not from the later circuit of the city (Tac. Ann. 15.60, with Orellius' note; Plut. Galb. 28, where Sintenis quite needlessly reads Σεσσώριον for Σητέρτιον, from a conjecture of W. A. Becker; Burn, l.c. p. 219).

[maryhelena]

We have more information on the general subject.

The only thing which seems to be fairly certain here is that all four forms--crux commissa, crux immissa, crux decussata, and the upright post without a transverse beam--do seem to be attested. We don't need to worry about any special kind of absolute consistency on the part of torturers and executioners.

<snip>

Gunnar Samuelsson's 2011 book 'Crucifixion in Antiquity' is available on bookzz.org. There has since been a second revised edition. He has set up a website dealing with the book and reaction to it. http://www.exegetics.org/Welcome.html

• Samuelsson: '' It became clear to me some years into the project that the outcome might be controversial in some circles, but I could never in my life imagine that it should make headlines around the world. However, many of these articles in general and headlines in particular has been off topic. As a matter of fact, often misleading. Not least this has caused a frenzy in the blog sphere and as a result filled my mailbox. I have received numerous encouraging and supportive mails. But, also several mails from worried parish ministers as well as members of various churches. On this occasion, I decided to create this site.''

The point of issue for Christians is the fact that the shape of the cross on which the gospel Jesus was crucified cannot be determined. Obviously then, 'worried parish ministers', would have problems if confronted with members of their flock who revere in some way the ✝ cross. Sammuelson has simply pointed out that there is no evidence that this was the shape of the Jesus crucifixion instrument.

For myself, I never gave the shape of the gospel crucifixion cross a second thought - until viewing the Simcha Jacobovici video. (the first Simcha video I have watched).

So.....whether or not the Simcha video and it's proposed X cross is correct - the video has at least thrown open the question to a wide public audience. And that, after all is said and done, is what those of us interested in early christian origins would want.....questions to be raised over longstanding accepted ideas about the gospel Jesus story.

[John T]

Actually, this topic is considered a trivia pursuit question by most Christians.
The claim that Jesus was nailed through the wrist instead of the hands is another one of those trivial but distracting questions.
Another example would be how many nails were used at the Crucifixion, 3 or 4?

Yet, if I recall correctly there are at least 8 nails venerated as those of Christ's Crucifixion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_%28relic%29

[EdwardM]

If I remember correctly, there are two graffiti and one fresco that indicate that the Romans used T-shaped and t-shaped crosses in Italy in the late first century.

- Pozzuoli Graffito, which shows a person (scholars can't agree on the sex of the person) riding on a sedile with a Cornu / acuta crux attached. This latter thing is a curved vertical stake that curved outward; he or she is actually riding this thing rather than the sedile proper. The greater frame appears to be T-shaped.

- Vivat Crux Graffito, which appears to be a rebus to the reader (vivas in cruce). There is a lower "V" but one side crosses the pole and the other side has two strokes, as if to indicate a sharp spike. Where the cross beam sits appears to be two branches extending from the pole to support the beam. These branches could be natural branches, or brackets set into the pole.

- Fresco in the Colosseum in Rome. It shows three suspended and a tough being nailed. The suspended one on the left appears to be sitting on something. The one in the middle appears to be being asphyxiated by smoke from a fire set directly beneath. The one on the right is suspended crookedly; his torso seems to be leaning out from the cross, with his buttocks against the pole. All crosses appear to be t-shaped; but there is no indication these are crucifixes ( two-beam crosses with each timber inlaid into the other ).

Typing on my iPhone, will send links later.