Marcion and the Man

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Clive
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Clive »

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/eps ... gel-t07139
This monumental group depicts an episode from the book of Genesis (Chapter 32, verses 24-32). According to the Biblical story, Jacob was forced to wrestle with an unknown assailant through the night. In the morning his opponent blessed him because he had not abandoned the struggle, and revealed himself to be an angel and messenger from God. Jacob gave thanks saying, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved'. During the early 1930s Epstein had read and re-read the book of Genesis and executed a series of unconventional water-colours on Old Testament stories. The subject of Jacob and the Angel fascinated him and may have had personal significance, not least because of the fact that Epstein's first name was Jacob.

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As a triangular number, 153 is the sum of the first 17 integers, and is also the sum of the first five positive factorials:1!+2!+3!+4!+5!.[1]

The number 153 is also a hexagonal number, and a truncated triangle number, meaning that 1, 15, and 153 are all triangle numbers.

The distinct prime factors of 153 add up to 20, and so do the ones of 154, hence the two form a Ruth-Aaron pair.

Since 153 = 1^3 + 5^3 + 3^3, it is a 3-narcissistic number, and it is also the smallest three-digit number which can be expressed as the sum of cubes of its digits.[2] Only five other numbers can be expressed as the sum of the cubes of their digits: 0, 1, 370, 371 and 407.[3] It is also a Friedman number, since 153 = 3 × 51, and a Harshad number in base 10, being divisible by the sum of its own digits.

The Biggs–Smith graph is a symmetric graph with 153 edges, all equivalent.

Another interesting feature of the number 153 is that it is the limit of the following algorithm:[4][5]

Take a random positive integer, divisible by three.
Split that number into its base 10 digits.
Take the sum of their cubes.
Go back to the second step.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/153_(number)

These xians thought they had proofs of their thinking from many different directions. They evidenced their proofs through their rituals. They threw loads of things into their new pot pouri and then had wondrous arguments about which were the important ingredients - giving the idea of heresy, this is the only way to bake this cake, to raise this christ!

NS are part of the recipe, probably musical, mathematical and tracking back to the old Jewish holy ideas - truly the name above all names. Isa, the pi of the gods.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Bingo
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Bingo »

Peter Kirby wrote:
outhouse wrote:800 BC
For whatever reason, you and Bingo are talking about things that are 1000 years distant from the relevant time period here.
Peter,

I misunderstood you. But it’s your own damn fault. You said that the author of Exodus 6:2 was ‘experimenting with divine names’. But now I see that what you meant to say is that people 1000 years later were experimenting with divine names.

Right?

Look again at how you phrased it:
Peter Kirby wrote: ...
Some of the good points first:

[1] The idea that there was speculation about and experimentation with the divine names

This needs no elaborate proof.
...
[wiki]Shaddai (god)[/wiki]
Shaddai (Hebrew: שַׁדַּי)
"According to Exodus 6:2–3, Shaddai was the name by which God was known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
"God spoke to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty [Hebrew El Shaddai], but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them."
See what I mean?

It’s your own damn fault.

I stand by my point: The author of Exodus 6:2 was not experimenting. He was intentionally trying to conflate two different gods. And the text in-and-of-itself does not directly support your claim that anyone was experimenting.

Once again - your point is that people 1000 years later were experimenting.

Right?

Fwiw we don't disagree about that.
Bingo
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Bingo »

Stephan Huller wrote:Well let's continue the debate about whether the Mekhilta of R Ishmael is LATE. I say a Tannaitic text isn't old. Help enlighten me about some older Jewish exegesis of the Book of Exodus that we might look to. Looking forward to something substantial but expecting nothing.
How about the possibilty that the golden bull who brought Israel out of Egypt (in Exodus 32:4) is a polemeic against El – the horned god who brought Israel out of Egypt in Numbers 23:22?

Does biblical in-fighting qualify as “older Jewish exegesis”?

Does that interest you?

:confusedsmiley:
Bingo
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Bingo »

Have you guys ever considered the possibility that the distinction between El and Yahweh was never completely forgotton?

Modern scholarship tends to assert that the distinction between these two gods was completely erased. Completely forgotten.

But was it?
Stephan Huller
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Stephan Huller »

The Marcionite system has THREE gods - the good, the just and the bad. We'll likely never entirely figure this out. In Philo system there are many - a supreme God way up beyond human comprehension, two lower powers, the Logos and then - perhaps because of his Platonic leanings even the Logos may have been distinguished between a 'inner' and 'outer' Logos (see Porphyry). I just keep trying to find bits and pieces but my sense would be that even if what you are suggesting is true (which I think has a lot going for it) it would have been refracted by the contemporary interest in Platonism and Greek philosophy (or at least Greek philosophical terminology). Good point though.
Clive
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Clive »

Is there a Samaritan connection? Might the god isa have come from there?

https://archive.org/details/Hagarism
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
outhouse
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by outhouse »

Bingo wrote:Have you guys ever considered the possibility that the distinction between El and Yahweh was never completely forgotton?



But was it?
NO it wasn't.

Our best accounts are that during Hellenism 200-400 BC is when monotheism took hold as orthodoxy. That does not mean El the Father was erased completely.

Many modern scholars overlook Els northern traditions completely.
outhouse
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by outhouse »

Stephan Huller wrote:Some pictures that demonstrate the idea survived and was at the heart of earliest Christianity
This tradition goes back to the earliest proto Israelites IMHO.

The whole man made in our image was read literally.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Stephan Huller »

I've started a new thread on this topic. Feel free to participate.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Marcion and the Man

Post by Peter Kirby »

You said that the author of Exodus 6:2 was ‘experimenting with divine names’.
Actually, I did not, but don't worry about it.
Bingo wrote:I misunderstood you. But it’s your own damn fault.
It’s your own damn fault.
It's not a big deal. Miscommunication happens all the time.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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