Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

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JoeWallack
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Matthew's BarabAss is Showing

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Matthew 27:16
And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas. (ASV)
The evidence here indicates that "Jesus Barabbas" is likely original:

Historical Commentary on the Gospel of Mark
Chapter 15

v6-7: Barabbas, literally "son of the father" is a probable doublet for Jesus himself (the Son of the Father). Indeed, there are manuscripts of Matthew that have "Jesus Barabbas" in this passage, and this must have been the case in the early days of Christianity, for Origen defensively insists that many manuscripts of Matthew in his time did not contain the offensive "Jesus" before "Barabbas." As a consequence some scholars have argued that this was the original usage in Mark (which Matthew copied) although this is a minority view. "Abba" was also a personal name in ancient Judaism, so the name may simply mean "Son of Abba."
Evidence that "Jesus Barabbas" is original to GMatthew here:

Patristic:

Origen :

Origen. Contra Celsus BOOK I.
2..."Which of the two do ye wish that I should release unto you, Barabbas or Jesus, who is called Christ?"
The Greek has the Greek definite article before Barabbas, "the Barabbas", which suggests that Origen was exorcising the "Jesus"' before it as otherwise it would be unusual to use the definite article before a proper name.

TVU 378 136. Difficult variant: Minority reading: NA28 Matthew 27:1

Origen [Ben, a little help here?]
(Sermon 121, on Matthew)
"In multis exemplaribus non continetur, quod Barabbas etiam Jesus dicebatur, et
forsitan recte, ut ne nomen Jesu conveniat alicui iniquorum"

Origen also mentions in passing (Sermon 33):
"quemadmodum secundum quosdam Barabbas dicebatur et Jesus"
and Scribal evidence:
Scholion, possibly from Origen: (This scholion appears in S/028 and some minuscule manuscripts..."But in many old copies I have encountered, I found also Barabbas himself called Jesus. For thus the question of Pilate reads there, "Which of the two do you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or Jesus who is called the Christ?"
Metzger writes: "This scholium, which is usually assigned in the manuscripts either to Anastasius bishop of Antioch (perhaps latter
part of the 6th CE) or to Chrysostom, is in one manuscript attributetd to Origen, who may indeed be its ultimate source.
Manuscript, Internal, Authority and Difficult Reading Principle evidence to follow. And even if "Matthew's" (author) id of "Jesus Barabbas" does not indicate that name in "Matthew's" GMark source it is still evidence that "Matthew" understood GMark's Barabbas as Jesus Barabbas or at least that GMark showed some type of name connection between the two.



Joseph

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Re: Matthew's BarabAss is Showing

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote:Origen [Ben, a little help here?]
(Sermon 121, on Matthew)
"In multis exemplaribus non continetur, quod Barabbas etiam Jesus dicebatur, et
forsitan recte, ut ne nomen Jesu conveniat alicui iniquorum"
"In many exemplars it is not attested that Barabbas was also called Jesus, and perhaps correctly, so that the name of Jesus might not come together with some sinner."
Origen also mentions in passing (Sermon 33):
"quemadmodum secundum quosdam Barabbas dicebatur et Jesus"
"...just as, according to some, Barabbas is also called Jesus."

Ben.
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I'm Looking For A Herod

Post by JoeWallack »

I'm Looking For A Herod

JW:
"Mark's" (author) use/misuse/abuse of the name "Herod" looks so contrived it's enough to make Neil Godfrey turn Israeli. For starters, just the chiastic presentation:

Verse Name
3 3:6 And the Pharisees went out, and straightway with the Herodians took counsel against him, how they might destroy him. Herodians
6 6:14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.
  • Herod
6:16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.
  • Herod
6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for Herod had married her.
  • Herod

    • Herodias
[/b]
      • Herod
[/b]
6:18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.
      • Herod
[/b]
6:19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;
        • Herodias
[/b]
6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe.
      • Herod
[/b]
6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, and the high captains, and the chief men of Galilee;
      • Herod
[/b]
6:22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and them that sat at meat with him; and the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
    • Herodias
[/b]
  • Herod
8 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
  • Herod
12 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, that they might catch him in talk. Herodians

ReMarkable, yes but a disclaimer. Note the extra "Herod" near the top which makes the chiasm one Herod from perfect. Also, there is some textual variation regarding Herod and its extensions here.

I'm going to expand the table for related considerations but just some notes for now:
  • 1) As always, the above are the only uses of Herod* by "Mark".

    2) Nice inclusio with the Herodians at the beginning and ending with the same context.

    3) The contrived use of Herod* has explanatory power regarding apparent Markan errors with historical names (like PeeWee Hermad, he meant to do that).

    4) Note Herodias at the center of things (so to speak).

    5) Note the matching up of Herodias/Herodians regarding motivation, planning and result.

    6) Note the parallels between Herod and Pilate. Neither wanted to but both ordered the executions.

Joseph

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Re: I'm Looking For A Herod

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:
  • 1) As always, the above are the only uses of Herod* by "Mark".

    2) Nice inclusio with the Herodians at the beginning and ending with the same context.

    3) The contrived use of Herod* has explanatory power regarding apparent Markan errors with historical names (like PeeWee Hermad, he meant to do that).

    4) Note Herodias at the center of things (so to speak).

    5) Note the matching up of Herodias/Herodians regarding motivation, planning and result.

    6) Note the parallels between Herod and Pilate. Neither wanted to but both ordered the executions.
Thanks. Very interesting.
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Re: I'm Looking For A Herod

Post by JoeWallack »

I'm Looking For A Herod

JW:
"Mark's" (author) use/misuse/abuse of the name "Herod" looks so contrived it's enough to make Neil Godfrey turn Israeli. Again, start with the chiastic presentation but now add a column for theme:

Verse Name Theme
3 3:6 And the Pharisees went out, and straightway with the Herodians took counsel against him, how they might destroy him. Herodians Plotting against
6 6:14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.
  • Herod
Rising
6:16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.
  • Herod
-
6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for Herod had married her.
  • Herod

    • Herodias
[/b]
      • Herod
[/b]
-
6:18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.
      • Herod
[/b]
-
6:19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;
        • Herodias
[/b]
-
6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe.
      • Herod
[/b]
-
6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, and the high captains, and the chief men of Galilee;
      • Herod
[/b]
-
6:22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and them that sat at meat with him; and the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
    • Herodias
[/b]
  • Herod
-
8 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
  • Herod
Rising
12 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, that they might catch him in talk. Herodians Plotting against

JW:
I hereby name this phenomena where a chiastic structure is formed by (over)use of a word rather than verses and has corresponding themes within as a Chithemism. As far as anyone knows "Mark" (author) was the first to use it and I was the first to discover it.

Note that adding the leaven of Herod to 8:15 seems unnecessary since Herod has such a minor role in GMark compared to the Pharisees and predictably this is exorcised by "Matthew"/"Luke" who want more history sounding and less style/strange/bizarre/macabre. The only good reason to add the leaven of Herod here appears to be to complete the Chithemism. I have faith though that since "Mark's" Herodias story is clearly sexual, the "rising" of Herod is a related joke/irony.

Bonus material for Solo = As usual "Mark's" source here regarding leaven is...


Joseph

Review of Daniel Wallace Mark 16:8 as the Conclusion to the Second Gospel - Greek Manuscript Evidence
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Ben C. Smith »

It is not quite perfect, is it? The sequence begins with the Herodians, Herod ×3, and then Herodias, but it ends with Herodias, Herod ×2, and the Herodians. Also, the second Herod of 6.17 is not in the Greek, leaving the center as Herodias, Herod ×1, Herodias, Herod ×2, Herodias. Why do you think Mark would come so close to perfection but not achieve it?

Michael Turton suggests that the entire story of Herod and John is an interpolation. If so, most of these mentions would disappear, leaving only the Herodians (3.6), Herod (8.15), and the Herodians again (12.13). Not as impressive a chiasm, to be sure, but at least it would be perfect.
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes it's an interpolation
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: I'm Looking For A Herod

Post by JoeWallack »

I'm Looking For A Herod

JW:
"Mark's" (author) use/misuse/abuse of the name "Herod" looks so contrived it's enough to make Neil Godfrey turn Israeli. Again, start with the chiastic presentation but now add a column for theme:

Verse Name Theme
3 3:6 And the Pharisees went out, and straightway with the Herodians took counsel against him, how they might destroy him. Herodians Plotting against
6 6:14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.
  • Herod
Rising
6:16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.
  • Herod
Rising
6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for Herod had married her.
  • Herod

    • Herodias
[/b]
      • Herod
[/b]
Sexual Immorality
6:18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.
      • Herod
[/b]
-
6:19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;
        • Herodias
[/b]
-
6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe.
      • Herod
[/b]
-
6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, and the high captains, and the chief men of Galilee;
      • Herod
[/b]
Sexual Immorality
6:22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and them that sat at meat with him; and the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
    • Herodias
[/b]
  • Herod
Sexual Immorality
8 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
  • Herod
Rising
12 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, that they might catch him in talk. Herodians Plotting against

JW:
I hereby name this phenomena where a chiastic structure is formed by (over)use of a word rather than verses and has corresponding themes within as a Chithemism. As far as anyone knows "Mark" (author) was the first to use it and I was the first to discover it.


Bonus material for Solo = As usual "Mark's" source here regarding sexual immorality is...


Joseph

Review of Daniel Wallace Mark 16:8 as the Conclusion to the Second Gospel - Greek Manuscript Evidence
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Re: I'm Looking For A Herod

Post by JoeWallack »

Kill Bar

JW:
"Mark's" (author) use/misuse/abuse of the name "Herod" looks so contrived it's enough to make Neil Godfrey turn Israeli. Again, start with the chiastic presentation but now add a column for theme:

Verse Name Theme
3 3:6 And the Pharisees went out, and straightway with the Herodians took counsel against him, how they might destroy him. Herodians Plotting against
6 6:14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.
  • Herod
Rising
6:16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.
  • Herod
Rising
6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for Herod had married her.
  • Herod

    • Herodias
[/b]
      • Herod
[/b]
Sexual Immorality
6:18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.
      • Herod
[/b]
Righteousness
6:19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;
        • Herodias
[/b]
Passion to Kill
6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe.
      • Herod
[/b]
Righteousness
6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, and the high captains, and the chief men of Galilee;
      • Herod
[/b]
Sexual Immorality
6:22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and them that sat at meat with him; and the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
    • Herodias
[/b]
  • Herod
Sexual Immorality
8 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
  • Herod
Rising
12 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, that they might catch him in talk. Herodians Plotting against

JW:
I hereby name this phenomenon where a chiastic structure is formed by (over)use of a word rather than verses and has corresponding themes within as a Chithemism. As far as anyone knows "Mark" (author) was the first to use it and I was the first to discover it.

The themes above then create a Remarkable Chithemism. Note that in the center is:

"6:19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;"

This is the heart of the Jesus Passion story. The Priests are against Jesus, want to kill him, but have to have someone else do that. parallells =
  • Herodias/Priests

    John the Baptist/Jesus

    Herod/Pilate


Joseph

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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
It's quite amazing ...

Well done, Joe
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