Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote:Only the unnamed are healing beneficiaries. You'd think it would be the other way around. ReMarkable characters would be named.
What is this expectation based on, anyway? Do you think that healing beneficiaries are usually named in ancient miracle stories? I ask because I personally would expect, if anything, the healer to be named, but the healed not necessarily. To me, the healer is the remarkable one, not the healed. Not everybody can be a healer, but anybody can be healed if there is a healer around.

Unless I have misunderstood you.

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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

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Ben C. Smith wrote:Do you think that healing beneficiaries are usually named in ancient miracle stories?
Good question....
About this time there came a certain woman, who said that she had been warned in a dream to coax Hadrian to refrain from killing himself, for he was destined to recover entirely, but that she had failed to do this and had become blind; she had nevertheless been ordered a second time to give the same message to Hadrian and to kiss his knees, and was assured of the recovery of her sight if she did so. 2 The woman then carried out the command of the dream, and received her sight after she had bathed her eyes with the water in the temple from which she had come. 3 Also a blind old man from Pannonia came to Hadrian when he was ill with fever, and touched him; whereupon the man received his sight, and the fever left Hadrian. 4 All these things, however, Marius Maximus declares were done as a hoax. (SHA Hadrian, 25.1–4)
A certain commoner, who was deprived of his sight, and another who was lame,together approached him while he was sitting at the tribunal, imploring him for thecure for their illness that had been shown them by Serapis as they slept, saying that if Vespasian should spit upon the one, his sight would be restored, and if he should deignto touch the other with his heel, his leg would regain strength. Although Vespasiancould scarcely believe that it would succeed by any means, to the point that he dare noteven try, at last, with his friends urging him on, he made the attempt publicly before theassembled crowd and he was not unsuccessful. (Suet. Vesp. 7.2–3.)
Here having entered alone, without attendants, the temple of Serapis, to take the auspices respecting the establishment of his power, and having done his utmost to propitiate the deity, upon turning round, his freedman Basilides appeared before him, and seemed to offer him the sacred leaves, chaplets, and cakes, according to the usage of the place, although no one had admitted him, and he had long laboured under a muscular debility, which would hardly have allowed him to walk into the temple; besides which, it was certain that at the very time he was far away. (Suet. Vesp. 7.1)
Now while he was discussing the question of libations, there chanced to be present in his audience a young dandy who bore so evil a reputation for licentiousness that his conduct had long been the subject of coarse street-corner songs. His home was Corcyra, and he traced his pedigree to Alcinous the Phaeacian who entertained Odysseus.

Apollonius then was talking about libations, and was urging them not to drink out of a particular cup, but to reserve it for the gods, without ever touching it or drinking out of it. But when he also urged them to have handles on the cup, and to pour the libation over the handle, because that is the part at which men are least likely to drink, the youth burst out into loud and coarse laughter, and quite drowned his voice. Then Apollonius looked up and said: "It is not yourself that perpetrates this insult, but the demon, who drives you without your knowing it."

And in fact the youth was, without knowing it, possessed by a devil; for he would laugh at things that no one else laughed at, and then would fall to weeping for no reason at all, and he would talk and sing to himself. Now most people thought that it was boisterous humor of youth which led him into excesses; but he was really the mouthpiece of a devil, though it only seemed a drunken frolic in which on that occasion he was indulging.

Now, when Apollonius gazed on him, the ghost in him began to utter cries of fear and rage, such as one hears from people who are being branded or racked; and the ghost swore that he would leave the you man alone and never take possession of any man again. But Apollonius addressed him with anger, as a master might a shifty, rascally, and shameless slave and so on, and he ordered him to quit the young man and show by a visible sign that he had done so. "I will throw down yonder statue," said the devil, and pointed to one of the images which were there in the king's portico,[3] for there it was that the scene took place.

But when the statue began by moving gently, and then fell down, it would defy anyone to describe the hubbub which arose thereat and the way they clapped their hand with wonder. But the young man rubbed his eyes as if he had just woke up, and he looked towards the rays of the sun, and assumed a modest aspect, as all had their attention concentrated on him; for he no longer showed himself licentious, nor did he stare madly about, but he had returned to his own self, as thoroughly as if he had been treated with drugs; and he gave up his dainty dress and summery garments and the rest of his sybaritic way of life, and he fell in love with the austerity of philosophers, and donned their cloak, and stripping off his old self modeled his life and future upon that of Apollonius.

(Life of Apollonius, 4.20)
Here too is a miracle which Apollonius worked: A girl had died just in the hour of her marriage, and the bridegroom was following her bier lamenting as was natural his marriage left unfulfilled, and the whole of Rome was mourning with him, for the maiden belonged to a consular family. Apollonius then witnessing their grief, said: "Put down the bier, for I will stay the tears that you are shedding for this maiden."

And withal he asked what was her name. The crowd accordingly thought that he was about to deliver such an oration as is commonly delivered to grace the funeral as to stir up lamentation; but he did nothing of the kind, but merely touching her and whispering in secret some spell over her, at once woke up the maiden from her seeming death; and the girl spoke out loud, and returned to her father's house, just as Alcestis did when she was brought back to life by Heracles. And the relations of the maiden wanted to present him with the sum of 150,000 sesterces, but he said that he would freely present the money to the young lady by way of dowry.

Now whether he detected some spark of life in her, which those who were nursing her had not noticed -for it is said that although it was raining at the time, a vapor went up from her face- or whether her life was really extinct, and he restored it by the warmth of his touch, is a mysterious problem which neither I myself nor those who were present could decide.

(Life of Apollonius, 4.45)
Here too is a story which they tell of him in Tarsus. A mad dog had attacked a lad, and as a result of the bite the lad behaved exactly like a dog, for he barked and howled and went on all four feet using his hands as such, and ran about in that manner. And he had been ill in this way for thirty days, when Apollonius, who had recently come to Tarsus, met him and ordered a search to be made for the dog which had done the harm.


But they said that the dog had not been found, because the youth had been attacked outside the wall when he was practicing with javelins, nor could they learn from the patient what the dog was like, for he did not even know himself any more. Then Apollonius reflected for a moment and said: "O Damis, the dog is a white shaggy sheep-dog, as big as an Amphilochian hound, and he is standing at a certain fountain trembling all over, for he is longing to drink the water, but at the same time is afraid of it. Bring him to me to the bank of the river, where there are the wrestling grounds, merely telling that it is I who call him."
So Damis dragged the dog along, and it crouched at the feet of Apollonius, crying out as a suppliant might do before an altar. But he quite tamed it by stroking it with his hand, and then he stood the lad close by, holding him with his hand; and in order that the multitude might be cognizant of so great a mystery, he said: "The soul of Telephus of Mysia has been transferred into this boy, and the Fates impose the same things upon him as upon Telephus."

And with these words he bade the dog lick the wound all round where he had bitten the boy, so that the agent of the wound might in turn be its physician and healer.[3] After that the boy returned to his father and recognized his mother, and saluted his comrades as before, and drank of the waters of the Cydnus. Nor did the sage neglect the dog either, but after offering a prayer to the river he sent the dog across it; and when the dog had crossed the river, he took his stand on the opposite bank, and began to bark, a thing which mad dogs rarely do, and he folded back his ears and wagged his tail, because he knew that he was all right again, for a draught of water cures a mad dog, if he has only the courage to take it.

Such were the exploits of our sage in behalf of both temples and cities; such were the discourses he delivered to the public or in behalf of different communities, and in behalf of those who were dead or who were sick; and such were the harangues he delivered to wise and unwise alike, and to the sovereigns who consulted him about moral virtue.

(Life of Apollonius, 6.43)
Six stories, one person named in the story (Basilides above), five stories with no cured persons named.
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

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JW:
Chapter 3:

Verse Identity Named Unnamed Normal Unusual Count Context Commentary
3:3 Man with the withered hand - Unnamed - - - - -
3:16 Simon and an added name by Jesus, "Peter" Named - - Unusual 1 - "Named by" Jesus is "laid upon" in the Greek. The same word used for "the laying of hands" in healing context. Note in the previous pericope of the withered hand the implication of "laying of hands" to heal a hand. The figurative comparison is Jesus laid hands on the unnamed man to heal him and all Jesus laid on Simon was a name (understand dear Reader?)
3:17 and James the [son] of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and them he surnamed Boanerges, which is, Sons of thunder: Named - - Unusual - Yes Again, "named by" Jesus is "laid upon" in the Greek. Only used for the three, Simon, James and John. "Matthew"/"Luke" exorcise the offending word which is used once in Paul/Fake Paul = 1 Timothy 5:22 , "Lay hands hastily on no man, neither be partaker of other men`s sins: keep thyself pure." I'll also just note for now that both times this James was invoked he was identified as a "brother". The nickname implies they were in some way loud.
3:18 Philip Named - Normal - 1 - -
3:18 Bartholomew Named - Normal - 1 - -
3:18 Matthew Named - Normal - 1 - -
3:18 Thomas Named - Normal - 1 - -
3:18 James the [son] of Alphaeus Named - Normal - 1 - Go back to 2:14 and "Levi the [son] of Alphaeus". So the name "James" has been invoked 3 times so far and every time it is explicitly or implicitly as a brother. Reminds this one of Antony's "They are "honorable" men". He was the "brother" of the Lord.
3:18 Thaddaeus Named - Normal - 1 - -
3:18 Simon the Cananaean Named - - Unusual 2 Yes 2 "Simons" invoked so far and both with nicknames
3:19 Judas Iscariot Named - - Unusual 1 - In the Greek "Iscariot" is close to an anagram for "Christ"



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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Clive »

About this time there came a certain woman,
Is there a rhetorical style here to the effect what is being reported reflects a very famous song from Porgy and Bess?

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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:Do you think that healing beneficiaries are usually named in ancient miracle stories?
Good question....

....

Six stories, one person named in the story (Basilides above), five stories with no cured persons named.
Thank you, Peter. I had Apollonius in mind myself; I also had in mind a couple of anonymous resurrections from the Elijah-Elisha stories, as well as the healing of Naaman, who (of course) is named. The stories from Suetonius seem to fit right in. It seems to me that sometimes the healed person is named, but usually not.

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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Clive »

O Damis, the dog is a white shaggy sheep-dog
And that is where shaggy dog stories were invented!
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by neilgodfrey »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:Only the unnamed are healing beneficiaries. You'd think it would be the other way around. ReMarkable characters would be named.
What is this expectation based on, anyway? Do you think that healing beneficiaries are usually named in ancient miracle stories? I ask because I personally would expect, if anything, the healer to be named, but the healed not necessarily. To me, the healer is the remarkable one, not the healed. Not everybody can be a healer, but anybody can be healed if there is a healer around.

Unless I have misunderstood you.

Ben.
I don't know if Joe is speaking from his own observation or from memory of his wider reading, but the argument that I have read re this pattern is that the unnamed characters are representatives of or ciphers for the readership, the audience to whom the gospel is addressed.

As with the narratives in the OT that are lessons of failure presented as admonitions for the "new Israel" of the audience (I think that bit comes from Thomas L. Thompson) so the Gospel of Mark tells the story of failure to warn the "new Israel" of Christians addressed by the gospel. The reason for not naming the beneficiaries (the faithful and those who receive the rewards of faith) is to facilitate an easier identification by the audience with these figures.

(Historical accounts would surely name the ones healed for their value in being able to confirm the stories. Remember the real reason the Pharisees wanted Jesus dead was because he raised Lazarus from the dead and Bauckham tells us that's why his name was suppressed elsewhere -- for his own protection.)
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

Post by Ben C. Smith »

neilgodfrey wrote:As with the narratives in the OT that are lessons of failure presented as admonitions for the "new Israel" of the audience (I think that bit comes from Thomas L. Thompson) so the Gospel of Mark tells the story of failure to warn the "new Israel" of Christians addressed by the gospel. The reason for not naming the beneficiaries (the faithful and those who receive the rewards of faith) is to facilitate an easier identification by the audience with these figures.
Okay, so that would explain, were we inclined to accept it, why Mark leaves the healing beneficiaries unnamed. But I was asking why we as readers would, according to Joe, expect that the beneficiaries would be named:
JoeWallack, underlining mine wrote:Only the unnamed are healing beneficiaries. You'd think it would be the other way around. ReMarkable characters would be named.
What would make us go into Mark thinking that they would be named, and then have to wonder why they are not?
(Historical accounts would surely name the ones healed for their value in being able to confirm the stories. Remember the real reason the Pharisees wanted Jesus dead was because he raised Lazarus from the dead and Bauckham tells us that's why his name was suppressed elsewhere -- for his own protection.)
Heh. Yeah, well... I have not the slightest interest in vindicating the historicity of any of the healings.

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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

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Ben C. Smith wrote:Hi, Joe.
JoeWallack wrote:Normal vs. Unusual will be more subjective but the overall objective is to compare Gospels, especially the likely original GMark, with other ancient works, using the same criteria.
It might help to keep a running tally of the individual criteria you are using to place the name (or lack thereof) into either the normal or the unusual category. It is not always clear (to me, at any rate) what criterion you are using. For example, you note in your observations:
Only the unnamed are healing beneficiaries. You'd think it would be the other way around. ReMarkable characters would be named.
Yet you do not count the unnamed man sick with the palsy as unusual; he qualifies as normal. The unnamed leper in 1.40 you do count as unusual, but the (lengthy) comment about lepers and towns seems to imply that it is not the name or lack of a name that is what prompted you to make that call. So it is not always even clear to me, despite the title of the thread, that it is something about the name of a character that you are saying is unusual.

If you had a numbered list of criteria to which you could refer (by number) in each case, it might be easier to follow.
Ben.
Hi Ben. Again, as the Evil Emperor said "You are a valuable asset". Regarding my criteria for "Normal" verses "Unusual" presentation I'm going to expand the population universe to include the population universe. Translation = I will also consider Normal vs. Unusual presentation of names by modern standards (the only standards I use to make conclusions). Modern standards will give primary information. Ancient standards, such as what the author or their audience thought, will give secondary information. As Dr. Frankfurter said, "Don't get strung out" on which criteria I use for now. My primary starting objective is to create a list of names with characteristics to consider as a Templeplate. Once this original monster is given life, it can than be experimented on by switching around criteria parts.

Looking forward, I am looking forward to how GMark compares to GJohn as to naming of healing beneficiaries. Cumulative evidence is better than individual and cumulative evidence that is consistent is even better. I have faith that every healing beneficiary in GMark is unnamed and that GMark has a relatively higher percent of healing beneficiaries than the other Gospels. To me this observation is consistent with what I see as an important theme of "Mark" (author) to discredit supposed historical witness. The best potential historical witnesses to "Mark's" Jesus, direct/personal recipients of the impossible, are all unnamed. Contrast to GJohn, written much later, so the author had a long time to think about and react to GMark and its offspring. To me GJohn has the opposite theme, it wants to credit supposed historical witness in the narrative. I confess though that I am disappointed that I think GJohn, while it does have relatively less healings (think of all those sick being neglected during John's Jesus long sermons) than GMark, only appears to have one name beneficiary, but, as John said, in the classic Scrooged, "Ooh, wee, that was a good one!". This can be explained though as GMark started the holy thing with no names and gradually subsequent Gospellers, who wanted supposed historical witness, added them. This will be an interesting comparison.

A side observation is that this is also potentially more evidence for Markan priority if GMark is consistent with no names here and other Gospels generally follow but tend to add a few names here and there.

Getting back to modern standards, is the lack of identification of a potential witness/es considered a weakness in support of fact? Of course. Ignoring/denying this and refusing to budge from only looking at what you think your "expert" thinks, the author thought his audience thought, is Apologetics.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Also, what is the context column tracking?
JW:
The context column indicates if I think there is some connection between a name and the context/theme of either the offending pericope or the overall Gospel which than is going to be at times a potentially subjective criterion.

As always I think Paul/"Mark" would really appreciate the irony that the modern Christianity they helped create has put away the faith that started it and tries to convince based on supposed historical witness evidence which they preached against.


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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fic

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JW:
On to Chapter 6:

Verse Identity Named Unnamed Normal Unusual Count Context Commentary
6:3 Mary, mother of Jesus Named - - Unusual 1 - Odd that Mary the mother would be used to identify and not the father
6:3 James, brother of Jesus Named - - Unusual 2 - The name "James" has now been used 4 times and all 4 times it has been identified as a brother. I think already at this point it is not just remarkable but would have been otherwise unknown usage in ancient writing.
6:3 Joses, brother of Jesus Named - - Unusual 1 - -
6:3 Judas, brother of Jesus Named - - Unusual 2 - -
6:3 Simon, brother of Jesus Named - - Unusual 3 - No nickname this time but note for now that Simon was the first disciple called but the last brother named. Also, the brothers named, James, Joses, Judas and Simon, I think would have been the most famous brothers from the most famous brothers story in the Jewish Bible. Reminds this brother of Paul saying that Jesus was revealed to him in the Jewish Bible

to be continued...



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Last edited by JoeWallack on Sun May 10, 2015 12:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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