Sons of Thunder --- James and John in gMark

[Peter Kirby]

How does Matthew get virgin from maiden?

It's not exactly a puzzle how someone might, if using the Septuagint.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/rich ... phecy.html
2. The Greek Is Not So Definite

The Greek word parthenos carries a basic meaning of 'girl', hence it denotes 'virgin' only by implication. And in fact this word could also be used to refer to non-virgin women who weren't married. Homer so uses it, and Homer was the standard textbook for learning Greek all throughout antiquity, so any writer of Greek would know of this word's versatile and indefinite meaning.[9] So the Jewish translators need not have had virginity in mind, but youth. Still, this word carried a strong connotation of virginity, and there were Greek words that didn't carry that connotation (like neanis). And Mikulski is right to point out that the choice to go with parthenos was made, presumably, by Jews. Even so, we can't know what was in the mind of the scribe who chose that word. It is possible the Jewish translator of Isaiah wasn't taking sides on whether 'virgin' was meant but was using a word that could mean either, and that only later did Christians take it as definitely meaning 'virgin'.

[9] Cf. Iliad 2.514. Also: Pindar, Pythian Odes 3.34; Sophocles, Trachiniae 1219; Aristophanes, Nubes 530. I'm not aware of any evidence that Koinê usage differed from Classical or Attic in allowing this connotation.

-- Richard Carrier, "The Problem of the Virgin Birth Prophecy (2003)"

http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=82026&context=lsj
παρθένος, Lacon. παρσένος Ar.Lys.1263 (lyr.). ἡ, maiden, girl, Il.22.127, etc. ; αἱ ἄθλιαι π. ἐμαί my unhappy girls, S.OT1462, cf. Ar.Eq.1302; also γυνὴ παρθένος Hes. Th.514; π. κόρα, of the Sphinx, dub. in E.Ph.1730 (lyr.); θυγάτηρ π. X.Cyr.4.6.9; of Persephone, E. Hel.1342 (lyr.), cf. S.Fr.804; virgin, opp. γυνή, Id.Tr.148, Theoc.27.65.
2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Il.2.514, Pi.P.3.34, S.Tr.1219, Ar.Nu.530.
3. Παρθένος, ἡ, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens, Paus.5.11.10, 10.34.8 (hence of an Att. coin bearing her head, E.Fr.675); of Artemis, E.Hipp.17; of the Tauric Iphigenia, Hdt.4.103; of an unnamed goddess, SIG46.3 (Halic., v B.C.), IG12.108.48, 54 (Neapolis in Thrace); αἱ ἱεραὶ π., of the Vestal Virgins, D.H.1.69, Plu.2.89e, etc. ; αἱ Ἑστιάδες π. Id.Cic.19; simply, αἱ π. D.H.2.66.
4. the constellation Virgo, Eudox. ap. Hipparch. 1.2.5, Arat.97, etc.
5. = κόρη III, pupil, X.ap.Longin.4.4, Aret. SD1.7.
II. as Adj., maiden, chaste, παρθένον ψυχὴν ἔχων E.Hipp. 1006, cf. Porph. Marc.33; μίτρη π. Epigr.Gr.319: metaph., π. πηγή A.Pers.613.
III. as masc., παρθένος, ὁ, unmarried man, Apoc.14.4.
IV. π. γῆ Samian earth (cf. παρθένιος III), PMag.Berol.2.57.

-- The Online Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English Lexicon

παρθένος, ου, ἡ (s. prec. entry; Hom.+, gener. of a young woman of marriageable age, w. or without focus on virginity; s. esp. PKöln VI, 245, 12 and ASP 31, ’91 p. 39) and ὁ (s. reff. in b) in our lit. one who has never engaged in sexual intercourse, virgin, chaste person
ⓐ female of marriageable age w. focus on virginity ἡ παρθένος Mt 25:1, 7, 11; 1 Cor 7:25 (FStrobel, NovT 2, ’58, 199–227), 28, 34; Pol 5:3; Hv 4, 2, 1; Hs 9, 1, 2; 9, 2, 3; 5; 9, 3, 2; 4f; 9, 4, 3; 5f; 8 al.; AcPl Ox 6, 16 (cp. Aa I 241, 15); GJs 13:1. After Is 7:14 (הָעַלְמָה הָרָה; on this ASchulz, BZ 23, ’35, 229–41; WBrownlee, The Mng. of Qumran for the Bible, esp. Is, ’64, 274–81) Mt 1:23 (cp. Menand., Sicyonius 372f παρθένος γʼ ἔτι, ἄπειρος ἀνδρός). Of Mary also Lk 1:27ab; GJs 9:1; 10:1; 15:2; 16:1; 19:3; ISm 1:1 and prob. Dg 12:8 (the idea that the spirit of a god could father a child by a woman, specifically a virgin, was not foreign to Egyptian religion: Plut. Numa 62 [4, 6], Mor. 718ab; Philo, Cher. 43–50 [on this ENorden, D. Geburt des Kindes 78–90; ELeach, Genesis as Myth, and Other Essays ’69, 85–112; RBrown, The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus ’73, 62, esp. n. 104; idem, The Birth of the Messiah ’77, 522f, esp. n. 17]. S. further the lit. on Ἰωσήφ 4 and OBardenhewer, Mariä Verkündigung 1905; EPetersen, Die wunderbare Geburt des Heilandes 1909; HUsener, Das Weihnachtsfest2 1911; ASteinmann, D. jungfräul. Geburt des Herrn3 1926, D. Jungfrauengeburt u. die vergl. Religionsgeschichte 1919; GBox, The Virgin Birth of Jesus 1916; OCrain, The Credibility of the Virgin Birth 1925; JMachen, The Virgin Birth of Christ2 ’32 [on this FKattenbusch, StKr 102, 1930, 454–74]; EWorcester, Studies in the Birth of Our Lord ’32; KSchmidt, D. jungfrl. Geb. J. Chr.: ThBl 14, ’35, 289–97; FSteinmetzer, Empfangen v. Hl. Geist ’38; RBratcher, Bible Translator 9, ’58, 98–125 [Heb., LXX, Mt]; TBoslooper, The Virg. Birth ’62; HvCampenhausen, D. Jungfrauengeburt in d. Theol. d. alten Kirche ’62; JMeier, A Marginal Jew I, ’91, 205–52 [lit.].—RCooke, Did Paul Know the Virg. Birth? 1927; PBotz, D. Jungfrausch. Mariens im NT u. in der nachap. Zeit, diss. Tüb. ’34; DEdwards, The Virg. Birth in History and Faith ’43.—Clemen2 114–21; ENorden, D. Geburt des Kindes2 ’31; MDibelius, Jungfrauensohn u. Krippenkind ’32; HMerklein, Studien zu Jesus und Paulus [WUNT 105] ’98; in gener., RBrown, The Birth of the Messiah ’77, 133–63, esp. 147–49. As a contrast to Dibelius’ Hellenistic emphasis s. OMichel and OBetz, Beih., ZNW 26, ’60, 3–23, on Qumran parallels.). Of the daughters of Philip παρθένοι προφητεύουσαι Ac 21:9. Of virgins who were admitted to the church office of ‘widows’ ISm 13:1 (s. AJülicher, PM 22, 1918, 111f. Differently LZscharnack, Der Dienst der Frau 1902, 105 ff).—On 1 Cor 7:36–38 s. γαμίζω 1 and s. also PKetter, Trierer Theol. Ztschr. 56, ’47, 175–82 (παρθ. often means [virgin] daughter: Apollon. Rhod. 3, 86 παρθ. Αἰήτεω and the scholion on this has the following note: παρθένον ἀντὶ τοῦ θυγατέρα; Lycophron vss. 1141, 1175; Diod S 8, 6, 2; 16, 55, 3; 20, 84, 3 [pl. beside υἱοί]. Likewise Theod. Prodr. 1, 293 H. τὴν σὴν παρθένον=‘your virgin daughter’; in 3, 332 τ. ἑαυτοῦ παρθένον refers to one’s ‘sweetheart’; likew. 6, 466, as well as the fact that παρθ. can mean simply ‘girl’ [e.g. Paus. 8, 20, 4]). On Jewish gravestones ‘of age, but not yet married’ CIJ I, 117. RSeeboldt, Spiritual Marriage in the Early Church, CTM 30, ’59, 103–19; 176–86.—In imagery: the Corinthian congregation as παρθένος ἁγνή (ἁγνός a) 2 Cor 11:2 (on this subj. s. FConybeare, Die jungfräul. Kirche u. die jungfräul. Mutter: ARW 8, 1905, 373ff; 9, 1906, 73ff; Cumont3 283, 33).—ἡ τοιαύτη παρθένος AcPl Ox 6, 15f (of Thecla; cp. Aa I 241, 15 ἡ τοιαύτη αἰδὼς τῆς παρθένου).
ⓑ male virgin ὁ παρθένος virgin, chaste man (CIG IV, 8784b; JosAs 8:1 uses π. of Joseph; Pel.-Leg. 27, 1 uses it of Abel; Suda of Abel and Melchizedek; Nonnus of the apostle John, who is also called ‘virgo’ in the Monarchian Prologues [Kl. T. 12 1908, p. 13, 13]) Rv 14:4 (on topical relation to 1 En 15:2–7 al., s. DOlson, CBQ 59, ’97, 492–510).—JFord, The Mng. of ‘Virgin’, NTS 12, ’66, 293–99.—B. 90. New Docs 4, 224–27. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq. Sv.

-- Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. "Based on Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Wr̲terbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der frhchristlichen [sic] Literatur, sixth edition, ed. Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, with Viktor Reichmann and on previous English editions by W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker." (3rd ed.) (777). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

παρθένος, ου, ἡ and ὁ (1) as an unmarried young woman virgin, maiden, girl (MT 25.1; perhaps 1C 7.36-38); figuratively, of the church as the bride pledged to Christ (2C 11.2); (2) in relation to the father in a household virgin daughter (probably 1C 7.36-38); (3) an adult male who has not had sexual intercourse with a woman virgin; perhaps metaphorically in RV 14.4 for members of a redeemed community maintaining moral purity chaste men, pure persons

-- Friberg, T., Friberg, B., & Miller, N. F. (2000). Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker's Greek New Testament library (301). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

[outhouse]

It's not exactly a puzzle how someone might, if using the Septuagint.

.

You misunderstood it was a rhetorical question.

It is an example of the Hellenistic authors perverting the plagiarized traditions. Accidental or on purpose rhetorically.

And it answers cpt know it all's questions. You don't always need to rely on literal detailed interpretations, because the Hellenist surely did not.


The exact context is lost. Yet "sons of thunder" fits the bill in all areas and one not need to deviate down alleys of imagination and idiocy to explore context that was probably never there.

When we look at Ellicotts, Benson, Expositors, Cambridge and Bengels, Vincent and Barnes, and Matthew Henrys and Gills. The only think proper is to flush Stephans.

[outhouse]

With that logic anyone can argue anything any time they want. Thanks for wasting my time

Shit your he biggest time waster here. You go down more dead ends then anyone I have ever met, and not a by a little.


Your sitting here forcing your imagination into places it doesn't belong then adding certainty to it..


The map isn't the territory Stephan, get your eyes where they belong.

[Ulan]

I have read somewhere that Boanerges is a joke and means "work (ἔργον - ergon) of castrated oxen (βόας - boas - Accus Masc Plur)"

Yup, "Busy Lowing". Another one of those deprecating nicknames.

"Sons of Thunder" tries to make it sound better, I guess.

[Stephan Huller]

Shit your he biggest time waster here. You go down more dead ends then anyone I have ever met, and not a by a little.

So you walked away from this discussion of 'sons of thunder' thinking that you proved you have a better explanation for it than I provided? What did you show? What did you prove? What did you attempt to prove? As with most of your posts here at the forum I left at a loss even understanding WHAT YOU THOUGHT you contributed to the discussion.

[Peter Kirby]

Allow me to be obtuse enough to ask why Matthew's interpretation of parthenos helps us to understand these references in the Gospel of Mark.

Or just screw the rhetorical analogies and get to the point of explaining this bit in Mark. Even better.

[outhouse]

So you walked away from this discussion of 'sons of thunder' thinking that you proved you have a better explanation for it than I provided? .

No.

The current apologetic commentaries and Strong's, show a wide variance on possible meanings.

Why should I not trust them, over someone who gets 1 star for half of his books, selling for a penny.


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(17) Boanerges.—The word is an Aramaic compound (B’nè-regesh = sons of thunder). We may see in the name thus given a witness to the fiery zeal of the sons of Zebedee, seen, e.g., in their wish to call down fire from heaven on the Samaritans (Luke 9:54), and John’s desire to stop the work of one who cast out devils (Luke 9:49), or the prayer of the two brothers that they might sit on their Lord’s right hand and on His left in His kingdom (Matthew 20:21). It was, we may well believe, that burning zeal that made James the proto-martyr of the Apostolic company (Acts 12:2). We can scarcely fail to trace in the multiplied “thunderings and voices” of the Apocalypse (Revelation 4:5; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 8:5), and in the tradition of John’s indignant shrinking from contact with the heretic Cerinthus. that which was in harmony with the spiritual being of the Seer, and with the name which his Lord had thus given him.


Benson Commentary
Mark 3:17. James and John he surnamed Boanerges — “This word,” says Dr. Hammond, “is the corruption of the Hebrew בני רעשּׁ, benei ragnash, sons of earthquake, tempest, or any other commotion, such as is here styled, βροντη, thunder. And the meaning of this title may seem to be, that those two sons of Zebedee were to be special, eminent ministers of the gospel, which is called, Hebrews 12:26, φονη την γην γαλευουσα, a voice shaking the earth, taken from Haggai 2:7, which is directly the periphrasis of רעשּׁ, which is here rendered thunder, in the notion wherein φονη, voice, and βροντη, thunder, are promiscuously used for the same thing.” If the learned reader will consult Dr. Lightfoot and Grotius, he will receive further information concerning the derivation of the word Boanerges. Whitby thinks, “Christ gave James and John this name from a foresight of the heat and zeal of their temper, of which they quickly gave an instance in their desire to call down fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans. Hence we find, in the Acts, Peter and John are the chief speakers and actors in the defence and propagation of the gospel; and the zeal of James and Peter seems to be the reason why the one was slain by Herod, and the other imprisoned in order to the like execution.” Doubtless our Lord, in giving them this name, had respect to three things: the warmth and impetuosity of their spirits, their fervent manner of preaching, and the power of their word.


Which one do you like the most? or do you prefer another?

[outhouse]

Allow me to be obtuse enough to ask why Matthew's interpretation of parthenos helps us to understand these references in the Gospel of Mark.

.

the word was corrupted by Hellenist, the way Marks verse was per Dr. Hammond


“This word,” says Dr. Hammond, “is the corruption of the Hebrew בני רעשּׁ, benei ragnash, sons of earthquake, tempest, or any other commotion, such as is here styled, βροντη, thunder.

[Stephan Huller]

The word is an Aramaic compound (B’nè-regesh = sons of thunder).

But regesh doesn't mean thunder. The CAL article for regesh:

rgš vb. a/a to rage; sense

JLAtg (err.?) var. אתרגוש by assimilation to ˀtrgwšh v.n.



G View a KWIC


1 to rage, be upset Syr, LJLA. P Ps2:1 : ܠܡܢܐ ܪܓܫܘ ܥܡ̈ܡܐ TgPs55:3 : אתרעם במילי וארגוש

2 to become excited OfAEg, Syr. TAD C1.1(Ahiqar) .29 : שגיא ירגש

3 to sense, feel Syr, JBA. EphPar 7:24.3 : ܒܚܕ ܚܕ ܛܠܩܘ ܘܐܘܦܝܘ ܐܬܓܢܒܘ ܘܠܐ ܪܓܫܬ one by one (my days) disappeared and vanished, they were stolen away but I did not notice it. P Prov17:10 : ܡܬܢܓܕ ܣܟܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܓܫ/ܪܓܝܫ [=LXX ἄφρων δὲ μαστιγωθεὶς οὐκ αἰσθάνεται]. (a) p.p.: aware of something, sensitive to Syr. Rechts2 122:19 : ;



C View a KWIC


1 to sense Com. IJn2:3 : ܘܲܒܼܗܵܕܼܸܐ ܡܲܪܓܿܫܼܝܢܲܢ BT Git 56a(49) : ולא ליעול בך איניש אחרינא٠ ולא לירגשון בך do not let anyone else deal with you(r burial) so that they should not perceive that you (are alive). (a) w. ב : to be aware of something or someone Gal. SR[1].19:4(35) : מינפק לא ארגשון ביה מ{כ}י עייל ארגשון while he was exiting they were aware of him, while he was entering they were not. EchRB[1]102(3) : לחיש ליה באודניה ולא ארגיש ביה he whispered in his ear but he was not aware of him.

2 to make to sense Syr. ActsThom 245:20 : ܠܝ ܡܿܪܓܫ ܡܐ̈ܢܐ ܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܡܫܬܡܥܝܢ ܠܗܿ he enables me to sense those vessels that obey it(!). (a) ܡܸܛܽܠ : to inform Syr.

3 to gather together urgently BADan, LJLA. Dan6:7 : ; Dan6:12 : הַרְגִּשוּ וְהַשְכַּחוּ לְדָנִיֵּאל בָּעֵא the gathered urgently and found Daniel praying. Dan6:16 : †. PJ Ex2:3 : ולא הוה אפשר לה תוב לאטמרתיה דמצראי מרגשין עלה he was not able to hide him because the Egyptians were crowding in on him. (a) to gather an army LJLA. PJ Deut34:5 : לא חרבא שלף ולא סוסא אסר ולא משיריין ארגיש he did not draw a sword nor gird a horse to gather forces.

4 to stir up rage Syr, JBA, LJLA. (a) to sound (an alarm?) Sam.

5 to be anxious Sam.



Gt View a KWIC


1 to rage Syr, LJLA. P Je46:7 : ܢܗܪ̈ܘܬܐ ܡܬܪܓܫܝ ܡ̈ܘܗܝ P Ps83:3 : ܒ̈ܥܠܕܒܒܝܟ ܡܬܪܓܫܝܢ

2 to be in commotion JLAtg. TgJ Is17:13 : כְאִתרְגוֹשָת מַיִין סַגִיאִין מִתרַגשִין they were turbulent like large bodies of water. (a) to be moved Syr.

3 to sense Syr.

4 to be sensed Syr. TB 3:9.7 : ܪܚܡܐ ܗܝ ܓܝܪ ܕܓܠܬܐ ܕܬܛܫܐ ܘܬܛܥܐ ܟܕ ܠܐ ܡܬܪܓܫܐ for a lie loves to hide and to mislead while not being sensed.



Ct View a KWIC


1 to sense Syr.



Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1435[713]; DJPA: 516b; DJBA: 1059b; Jastrow: 1450; Payne-Smith: ~3813; J. Payne-Smith: 529; Tal Sam: 818a; DNWSI: 1061;

[Stephan Huller]

As should now be clear rgš does not mean 'thunder.'