Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

neilgodfrey wrote:Can we have a Plan B comparison for those of us who doubt the original Paul made any reference to persecuting the church?
Let´s try also here your legendary post “Mark's flags for interpreting Mark?”

Refearly stories later echoesRef
1.40A leper came to Jesus in faith to be cleansed of leprosy Jesus entered the house of a leper (apparently never healed) - and named Simon14.5
1.43-44Jesus strictly warns the man healed of leprosy to be silent, to go his way, and testify to the priests – but he is unafraid of the warning and disobeys, speaking openly to allThe young man instructs the women to go and tell the disciples the news – but they are afraid (c.f. the unclean spirits) and fear to speak a word to anyone16.7-8

to deepen your points: further echoes

Mark 1:40-45Mark 14.3-9comments
1.40 If you are willing (θέλῃς) you are able (δύνασαί) to cleanse me14.7 Whenever you will (θέλητε) you are able (δύνασθε) them good to dothe phrase “If you will you are able” is used two times in Mark
1.43 and having snarled (ἐμβριμησάμενος) at him14.5 And they snarled (ἐνεβριμῶντο) at herthe word “snarl” is used two times in Mark


Mark 1:40-45Mark 16.7-8comments
1.44 but go (ἀλλὰ ὕπαγε) yourself show to the priest16.7 But go (ἀλλὰ ὑπάγετε) say to the disciples of him and to the Peterthe phrase “but go” is used two times in Mark

So here are strong echoes to two stories with women on the one hand and a Simon and a Peter on the other hand. (Therefore Robert could be right with the allusion to Numbers 12)

That's the Plan B how you wished it. So please tell me whats the sense of that.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

(Okay, the thread here seems not so hot. I will do just one last post.)
robert j wrote:I agree with those scholars that prefer ”with anger” as the best reading, and those scholars generally find significant agreement on the textual evidence and arguments for their positions. However, scholars are less successful at explaining the reason for Jesus’ anger. Proposed solutions include the anger of Jesus directed at the disease itself, at forces of evil, at the established purity system, or as the result of Mark’s use of multiple source-materials.
Mmm Mark’s text seems to indicate that the anger of Jesus is directed against the leper himself.
Mark 1:43 καὶ ἐμβριμησάμενος αὐτῷ εὐθὺς ἐξέβαλεν αὐτόν
and (having) snorted (or snarled) at him immediately he throws out him
ἐμβριμάομαιproperly, snort like an angry horse; (literally) "snort (roar) with rage" which expresses strong indignation, i.e. deep feeling that is moved to sternly admonish
ἐκβάλλω – from ek (out) and ballo (throw, cast)


Clearly, everybody would think, that this is impossible („Why would Jesus get angry with a poor leper?“ :facepalm: ) But maybe this is the question: Is this guy a „poor leper“?

In most stories of the hebrew bible the leprosy is not a natural disease and not a basic thing, but the result of a divine judgement of a sinner and therefore secondarily. You quoted Numbers 12. In this case „Miriam was leprous like snow“ because of a punishment by God („Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses“).

In Mark 1:40 the leper asks for cleansing not for healing. And Jesus declares that he is willing to cleanse the leper. Neither for the leper nor for Jesus the disease seems to be the basic problem. Therefore it could be possible that also here the leprosy is just an outer sign of the uncleanness of a sinner.

JoeWallack wrote:Spiritual Jesus has authority over spirits so he can command them (the spiritual King). Flesh can only be commanded by flesh (such as a fleshy King). Jesus is not a fleshy King so he can not command flesh. "Mark" (author) seems to equate sickness with evil spirits. Maybe that was what he/she/it believed or maybe it was just style. So Jesus, spirit KIng, commands evil spirit/leprosy and it obeys. Fleshy Jesus though is not a King and therefore can not command, he has to try and persuade. Fleshy Jesus could not command his fleshy disciples and he failed to persuade. The rest is, as they don't say, spiritual, not fleshy history.
Inspiring as always, Joe. Thanks
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul

Post by neilgodfrey »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:(Okay, the thread here seems not so hot. I will do just one last post.)
Not for lack of interest that I haven't responded; just that the questions raised are asking me to think where I don't have pre-dug furrows in my brain. The questions are interesting. I need time to think them through.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul

Post by Secret Alias »

If you dig through the Clementine Literature there is a reference to the story of Miriam being afflicted with leprosy and it is applied to Simon Magus (where Peter is Moses).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
robert j
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Re: Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul

Post by robert j »

neilgodfrey wrote:Not for lack of interest that I haven't responded; just that the questions raised are asking me to think where I don't have pre-dug furrows in my brain. The questions are interesting. I need time to think them through.
Not addressing this specifically to Neil, just using his comment for illustrative purposes --- assuming his comment was about the idea in my OP.

I understand the concept of Mark presenting Paul as a leper --- as well as the multiple parallels required to make the association as presented in my OP --- will not be readily accepted.

But for those that see Mark’s extensive use of Paul’s letters in his tale --- I expect some to think that the clever and devious Mark surely would have included Paul somewhere as a player. I think it’s the leper.

If not the leper, then who?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark’s ménage a trois with Miriam and Paul

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

robert j wrote:If not the leper, then who?
Who knows, whether Paul really appears as a character in the gospel of Mark. If this should be the case, then my impression would be, that Paul is a developed figure: the Gerasene demoniac, the alien exorcist, Bartimaeus and the Neaniskos.
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