This is not an attack on your methodology. This is an understanding of Pauls Christology which while in context, not fully understood, still leaves us with a great view of what his community believed. My summary stands in context. Pauls scripture is complex, and this is complexity is exploited out of context by Doherty, IMHO.Peter Kirby wrote:I wasn't really completely clear. My point was that it is a historicist interpretation that is lurking behind the summary of Paul that he was a man who died and rose to heaven. My question was not christological locomotion in the heavenly spheres so much as that this capsule summary did not pay close attention to the exact wording of Paul, none of which suggest a heavenly ascension from the surface of the earth like we see in the gospels.
There is so much to take in here, to even begin to take this all into a rapidly changing context.
Ouranos
Kingdom of god
Kingdom of heaven, even though a concept in Matthew, doesn't discount it wasn't used earlier.
Apocalyptic Judaism
Christology
Resurrection
Heaven as a name for god
Second coming
Third heaven from Enoch
Are all tied into the context of Paul's communities epistles. And each verse needs to be examined un detail not lumped into a category.
A challenge is the multiple uses of Ouranos when its meant as a living relationship with the concepts involved. As well as parallels with paradise as the lowest level of heaven, by some that used to touch the earth.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4King James Version (KJV)
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Even Pauls community thinks a man and spirit can enter this place, as noted with the uncertainty.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4King James Version (KJV)
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Where did he rise to? We are talking about the lord, the Christ, Gods son. I don't think this takes any leap of faith what so ever to think he did not rise from death and go past the earthly realm. I think it was so obvious, he did not have to rhetorically build it up. Paul wrote in rhetorically prose, and often was writing to persuade or justify his position. This is a topic he did not even have to address in full. he did not have to spell it out as it was already agreed and believed in full as part of their core theology.
We cannot ignore that some of the gospel traditions probably did exist, when Paul a primary source flat tells us he was not the only teacher, and that there were other written sources.
And piling more assumptions on this, we know we only have a fraction of the text that once existed.
But, none of this is needed in light of what Pauls community tells us. Its clear he believes Jesus was buried and was resurrected and lives in heaven.
Paul also uses a rabbinical style transmission of the resurrection, that he received and passed on to the houses in Corinth, leading many scholars to believe this was a pre Pauline existing creed.
Ephesians 1:20
he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
Sorry brother, I don't see how my words and these really differ. You would need to show the tradition of dead not having a place on the earth.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Still working on a hypothesis against Doherty and Carrier, But here is more then your hour back at ya.
