Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). TransMission E-Missions

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1608
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). TransMission E-Mission

Post by JoeWallack »

What a nightmare...
Peter Kirby wrote:One of the things I want to do one day is to look at all the quotations by Irenaeus from the New Testament and specifically look at them in relation to the text-critical issues of the New Testament. Despite being "early," Irenaeus has a habit of quoting expansions of the New Testament (longer ending of Mark, etc.) that still do not take over the textual witnesses entirely even as late as the fourth and fifth century (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, etc.) or that are deemed interpolations by modern scholars. Is this a coincidence? Does Irenaeus just happen to have very adulterated copies, very early on?

Or, if it is not a coincidence... ? Could it be that we need to invoke The Ken Olson Option?

We must be, at least, ready to consider it (although it is possible that a perpetrator, if there is one, would turn out to be not Irenaeus but one of his western forebears, such as Justin and/or his pupil Tatian).
JW:
Blessed art thou, Peter Bar-kirby: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my imaginary Father who is in imaginary heaven.

An excellent observation Peter. Always good to consider the opposite/alternative explanations (i.e. How do we know he's not Mel Torme?). It's entirely possible that the consistent orthodox but early Textual Criticism positions in Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons") are original and it was Irenaeus who was responsible to some extent for The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture.

By an Act of Providence Bart Ehrman, the Bard of Textual Criticism:

To read, or not to read, that is the textual question:
Whether 'tis NA'er in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous apologies,
Or to take Amendments against an unholy Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep (at least for the first 1,500 years).


Has been recently providing a Demonstration of the Non-Apostolic Preaching with examples of The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture:

The Bart Ehrman Blog

Regarding the extent of orthodox corruption in individual manuscripts Ehrman concludes:
Different proto-orthodox scribes implemented their changes in different places. We have no evidence of a consistent effort by any one scribe. If a particular passage seemed ripe for change, one scribe or another might change it (against docetists sometimes, against adoptionists other times, and so on). But we don’t have any single anti-docetic manuscript, or anti-adoptionist manuscript, or anti-Gnostic. We have scattered variants throughout the tradition.
JW:
Scribes and Manuscripts though, did not have much widespread authority in the second century. Bishops did. As has been noted in this Thread, extant Irenaeus is consistently orthodox for major Textual Criticism issues, which is out of place for a second century Patristic. Time to go through extant Irenaeus and inventory his positions of the major Textual Criticism issues:

Textual Healing's Good for you



Joseph

ErrancyWiki
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1608
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). TransMission E-Mission

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons") indicates that in his time much of the competition for the orthodox version(s) of Jesus are competitors who only use a single Gospel:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103311.htm
7. Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by the prophets, and who by Moses set forth the dispensation of the law,— [principles] which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him. So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine. For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord. But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified. Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.
Going through The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching the first controversial Textual issue I see is:

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 10)
5. Wherefore also Mark, the interpreter and follower of Peter, does thus commence his Gospel narrative: "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;"
Steps in analysis of the relationship between Irenaeus' claimed text and the orthodox text:

1) Determine the likely original text = Here Textual Criticism says that "the son of God" is likely an addition:

Mark 1:1

2) Determine the orthodox text = One of the most important assertions of orthodox Christianity is that Jesus was the son of God.

3) Determine the likely original Irenaeus:

External:

Mixed evidence here. The one Greek witness has "The beginning of the Gospel, as it is written in Isaiah the prophet". There is no "the son of God" but there is no "Jesus Christ" either. The champion of the offending phrase as original, Wasserman, amazingly takes this omission as evidence of originality claiming that Irenaeus omits "the son of God" due to abbreviating. But the lack of "the son of God" in this phrase can only be evidence of the lack of "the son of God" in this phrase. Similarly, the fellow lack of "Jesus Christ" here can only be evidence of the lack of "Jesus Christ" in the original, which by the way, would agree with the only known significant author before "Mark" (author), Paul.

On the other hand the Latin evidence has "the son of God". Everyone would agree in general that for Patristics in general and specifically, Irenaeus, translations from Greek to Latin showed movement to orthodox readings. So we have primary evidence here that Greek Irenaeus was edited in Latin to "the son of God". We have secondary evidence (Latin) that the offending phrase is original. Add to this that there is no Greek evidence for the offending phrase in the first 4 centuries.

Internal:

Context = Irenaeus has given a context of competing over GMark with a specific group and a specific issue:
Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified.
Does the inclusion of the offending phrase "the son of God" fit the context? Is it necessary for the context? The excerpt:
5. Wherefore also Mark, the interpreter and follower of Peter, does thus commence his Gospel narrative: "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, which shall prepare Your way. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the way of the Lord, make the paths straight before our God." Plainly does the commencement of the Gospel quote the words of the holy prophets, and point out Him at once, whom they confessed as God and Lord; Him, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who had also made promise to Him, that He would send His messenger before His face, who was John, crying in the wilderness, in "the spirit and power of Elias," Luke 1:17 "Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight paths before our God." For the prophets did not announce one and another God, but one and the same; under various aspects, however, and many titles. For varied and rich in attribute is the Father, as I have already shown in the book preceding this; and I shall show [the same truth] from the prophets themselves in the further course of this work.
Irenaeus' starting conclusion = Jesus and Christ were not separate entities.

How does the excerpt support the conclusion?:

Irenaeus' own analysis of his quote repeatedly says that what it supports is another major contention of his, in competition with Marcion over GLuke (as opposed to GMark), that the beginning of GMark supports Jesus and the God of The Jewish Bible as being on the same side (so to speak). Irenaeus' has no analysis here commenting on how the offending phrase "the son of God" supports Jesus and Christ as not being separate entities. The phrase itself supports Jesus and Christ not being separate entities as the combination is referred to as the son of God. But again, there is no analysis claiming this, repeated analysis claims something else. Since "the son of God" is not referred to in Irenaeus' related analysis here and it would be exactly what he needs to try and contradict his competition for GMark who (accurately) separate Jesus from Christ in GMark, this suggests that Irenaeus' was either unaware of "the son of God" here or it did not yet exist.

Conclusion for 3) = As the External and Internal evidence both favor "the son of God" as not original to Irenaeus, the conclusion is that
"the son of God" is not original to Irenaeus. But it was added to Irenaeus by Patristics.



Joseph

ErrancyWiki
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). TransMission E-Mission

Post by Bernard Muller »

to JW,
Why "Lyons" instead of "Lyon". The official name for this French city is LYON. Reference: Lyon official web site (in French) http://www.lyon.fr/page/accueil.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). TransMission E-Mission

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:to JW,
Why "Lyons" instead of "Lyon". The official name for this French city is LYON. Reference: Lyon official web site (in French) http://www.lyon.fr/page/accueil.html
Lyon:

Lyon or Lyons... is a city in east-central France, in the Rhône-Alpes region, situated between Paris and Marseille. The correct spelling in French is Lyon but the spelling Lyons is sometimes specified in English, particularly in newspaper style guides.

I do not know the origin of the "s" in this English rendering (the Latin name was Lugdunum, and was apparently based on something Gaulish), but it has a long, long tradition in scholarship.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1608
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). TransMission E-Mission

Post by JoeWallack »

Bernard Muller wrote:to JW,
Why "Lyons" instead of "Lyon". The official name for this French city is LYON. Reference: Lyon official web site (in French) http://www.lyon.fr/page/accueil.html

Cordially, Bernard
JW:
So Irenaeus was lyon. As I said.


Earnest
Post Reply