A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Bernard Muller »

It is most likely Hebrews 7:14 statement about Jesus being a Judahite stems from the belief he was a descendant of David (Ro 1:3). That belief was due mostly to Jewish scriptures: the ideal Messiah had to be from David's lineage.
Was Jesus a descendant of David (assuming David existed, which I think he did)?
There are two ways to look at it:
a) In these days, there was no official record existing in order to establish the long term ancestry of a Jew, especially for the ones of lower class. Anyone then could be said to be a descendant of David, without any evidence to show otherwise.
Note: when in Jerusalem, I met a rabbi who claimed to be a descendant of Moses. And nobody was laughing at that.
b) However, considering David and his royal descendants had many wives and concubines, and therefore generated many children, it has been calculated that most Jews of Palestine would have some David's blood in them during Jesus' times.

Regardless, for me, that claim in Heb 7:14, could not have been made if Jesus was not known then to have been a regular human earthly man.

My post on the same topic (dated January 2013): http://historical-jesus.info/40.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Secret Alias »

Just like people argue to edify a contentious or controversial point in forums like this one today the same thing happened in antiquity and in the early Christian writings. Bernard I never understand this 'finality' you speak of. I think the argument runs something like this:

because someone in antiquity said that Jesus wore flowers in his hair the only way this could be true is if Jesus really wore flowers in his hair

Give me a fucking break
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Secret Alias »

If that's true then the fact that there are documents which take it as given that Jesus was from outer space can only mean that Jesus really came from outer space.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote:because someone in antiquity said that Jesus wore flowers in his hair the only way this could be true is if Jesus really wore flowers in his hair
Image
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote:If that's true then the fact that there are documents which take it as given that Jesus was from outer space can only mean that Jesus really came from outer space.
Image
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Stephan Huller »

Well now that we found pictures it's REALLY settled!
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Secret Alias »

But now that I have your attention Bernard you are capable of acknowledging that the fact that things are SAID TO BE TRUE is not an indication of their truthfulness? If someone tries to sell you a used car, the odometer might not be a true indication of how many miles are on the car or even that there is a car.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Bernard Muller »

But now that I have your attention Bernard you are capable of acknowledging that the fact that things are SAID TO BE TRUE is not an indication of their truthfulness? If someone tries to sell you a used car, the odometer might not be a true indication of how many miles are on the car or even that there is a car.
I would say the odds that the odometer on an used car for sale in Canada gives the true indication are at least 10 to 1.
I would say the odds that an used car for sale on the internet in Canada is existing are at least 10 to 1.
So your examples can only show what is claimed has only a small chance to be false.
That does not mean that claim is likely to be wrong.
Same thing for the existence on a historical Jesus: what I see from mythicists are series of weak, convoluted, remote, ill-evidenced, indirect arguments. All they can do is to bring some doubts but cannot dispel the existence of a minimal Jesus (with no God, not a teacher, no parables, very few authentic sayings, no extraordinary miracles, not itinerant, etc ...).
Any attempts of a reconstruction of the beginning of Christianity without a historical Jesus are either non-existent or highly controversial, requiring post-dating or thrashing most early relevant documents or parts of them.
No just an observation from a book I am reading entitled Why People Who Post in Internet Forums Drive You Crazy.
It appears that book does not exist. If so, I am quite sure you'll be making a point on that. I can also.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Mon May 18, 2015 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Secret Alias »

So you are saying that you can calculate the probability of something being true or untrue 2000 years ago as accurately as you can used car sales in Canada today. Pray tell how you propose such accuracy.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: A lengthy note on Hebrews 7.14 (sprung from Judah).

Post by Secret Alias »

If you would simply admit that we can't know whether or not something removed from us by 2000 years ago with any reasonable degree of certainty I'd be willing to drop this conversation amicably. But that's the absurdity. You actually believe that because our text of the Epistle to the Hebrews has this bit about Jesus being 'from Judah' that we can be certain that Jesus actually was 'from Judah.' This is laughable.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Post Reply