Torah given by angels?

[ficino]

There are a number of NT verses that say that the Torah was given through angels, and this is affirmed in Josephus, AJ 15.163:

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q ... -come-from

Does rabbinic tradition generally agree with this? I.e. does it conclude from verses like Ex. 23:20-22 that it was through an angel that God gave the Torah to Moses? sc. "Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries."

But then, who is supposed to be speaking the above verses, since the speaker is talking about an angel and is not identical to that angel?

Stephan has talked about this, and perhaps I've misunderstood him or forgotten details. I thought the esh/ish figure would be above an angel.

[Secret Alias]

Ignoring my Ish hypothesis it is important to note that there were always two identifiable Torot - the 'heavenly Torah' = the ten utterances/commandments which God's finger inscribed in fire on the tablets and the rest of the Torah (the rest of the Pentateuch presumably). The distinction is important for how one reads the narrative because the word torah appears frequently in Deuteronomy. Take Deuteronomy 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you." Is the narrative to be understood that Moses was commanded to take the Pentateuch and place it in the ark or the ten utterances/commandments. The Samaritans read the text the right way = only the ten utterances = 'torah' here. This torah came from heaven/God.

But clearly there is another torah the Pentateuch itself. Where did this text come from? Under which authority was it created? It is typical to hear this torah referenced as 'according to Moses.' But were there those who said it was inspired by a lesser being 'the angels' - perhaps. I am not sure if this is the only way to interpret the Pauline reference to 'angels' or indeed all the references to the torah in Paul, but it is a start.

My difficulty to be honest is that I have gone so far as to accept the idea that in some form the gospel is framed around the idea that the being who gave the commandments to Moses returned to clarify or perhaps even change the original heavenly torah. I just haven't completely worked that out because Clement of Alexandria's references are so unclear. For instance Jesus's emphasis on 'do not lust' (a short form of the tenth commandment, ninth among the Samaritans). Did Jesus argue the short form was original? I would think so. But this implies the versions in Exodus and Deuteronomy were tampered with. By whom? Moses? The angels?

[Secret Alias]

On Paul (and Philo) using the 'short form' of the tenth commandment (and assuming it was meant by God to be read this way):

Paul interprets the Tenth Commandment according to its short form, οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις, to mean that Christians shall not have desire at all -- certainly not against God, and not against Paul, either (152-56). But human beings are not capable of resisting their urges, because God has set us up, so that only Christ can save us (155-56). http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2005/2005-10-19.html

and again the short form isn't just accepted by Paul and Philo but also the author of 4 Maccabees:

One such detail that has received surprisingly little attention is Paul's abbreviated reference to the Tenth Commandment, οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις (Rom 7:7). https://www.academia.edu/7251492/A_Sema ... n_Romans_7

I have mentioned previously that one of the oldest 'testimonies' (i.e. the physical tablet spelling out the ten utterances/commandments) represents the commandments in their short form in Hebrew. These monuments exist to this day in synagogues. My guess is that 'the angels' were blamed for the long form which among other things allowed for the propagation of 'lust' (owing to their obscuring the blanket condemnation of sexual desire in the short form).

In other words, 'the angels' conspired to corrupt the Torah of Moses. I think the underpinning of this understanding was that (a) monuments of the ten commandments were produced independently of the transmission of the Pentateuch (b) at least some Jews and Samaritans knew the Pentateuch was lost and 'rediscovered' or rewritten by Ezra (and thus wasn't exactly accurate) and (c) the differences between the long and short forms of the commandments weren't simply believed to be modern abbreviations.

[MrMacSon]

There are a number of NT verses that say that the Torah was given through angels,

.... verses like Ex. 23:20-22 that it was through an angel that God gave the Torah to Moses? sc. "Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries."

But then, who is supposed to be speaking the above verses, since the speaker is talking about an angel and is not identical to that angel?

The dream-world? - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1554

[Secret Alias]

The Samaritan Targum translates 'angel' here as 'apostle' from memory.

[ficino]

Thanks for the distinction between two Torot. I can see how what Hebrews says is consistent with it.

To what do the numbers 152-156 and 155-156 refer - to pages in On the Making of Fornication?

"The dream world" doesn't answer the question, "who is supposed to be speaking the above verses". ??