Greek perfect tense

[Bernard Muller]

Ben,
Sorry to come back at that:

About "endured: in Hebrews 12:2 RSV "Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted."

You wrote:

You appear to be reading the perfect tense as if the event in question can never happen again. That is a mistake. I can say (both in Greek and in English) that I have come, in the perfect tense, without implying that I shall never, ever come again. I can say, I have watched Casablanca before, even if I am currently in the middle of watching Casablanca, and am planning (moreover) to watch it again tomorrow. The perfect part of the tense just implies (usually) that the specific action I have in mind is complete, not that the same (kind of) action can never be repeated. At least one viewing of Casablanca is complete, and in my past, when I use the perfect tense to describe it. But that does not mean that I am not currently watching it again.

From http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

I cannot accept that the "endured" action could be repeated or is on-going when or before the epistle was written. I think the ancient Greek perfect tense simply does not allow that.
As for in the future, it is my opinion, that if an author uses the perfect tense, he is not anticipating that past action to be repeated.

Correct me with evidence if you can (or anyone else who knows ancient Greek), but don't use the English perfect tense in order to do that: it is irrelevant.

Cordially, Bernard

[Secret Alias]

Being seated there is rendered in Hebrews 12:2 in the perfect tense and hence viewed as an ongoing state. https://books.google.com/books?id=t1F-- ... 22&f=false

[Secret Alias]

Second, the verb is in the perfect tense, emphasizing the permanence of the enthronement and exaltation of Jesus. https://books.google.com/books?id=Qwd_V ... 22&f=false

[Secret Alias]

The perfect tense is a consummative perfect, which emphasizes the past, completed action of the session of Christ.

[Bernard Muller]

Being seated there is rendered in Hebrews 12:2 in the perfect tense and hence viewed as an ongoing state. https://books.google.com/books?id=t1F-- ... 22&f=false

BLB KJV (textus receptus) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... nc_1145002) indicates the tense of this verb is aorist: εκάθισεν. But KJV does not work on the Alexandrian retention which has κεκάθικεν.
However this site http://www.greekbible.com/ does. But it cannot assign a tense (probably due to some misspelling in the original Greek).
Note: the same verb is used also in Heb 10:12 in the aorist tense according to the to BLB KJV (textus receptus) and "Greek Bible', with the same spelling as in the BLB (textus receptus) 12:2.

Second, the verb is in the perfect tense, emphasizing the permanence of the enthronement and exaltation of Jesus. https://books.google.com/books?id=Qwd_V ... 22&f=false

The RSV has "has sat down' indicating a completed action in the past. From that "the enthronement and exaltation" can be considered as the everlasting consequences of Jesus being at the right hand of God. Of course that comment of mine is in case the verb in question is in the perfect tense, which is unlikely.
Furthermore, the book you posted is written by Christian scholars who are more concerned about putting a Christian spin on everything rather than taking care about the grammar.

The perfect tense is a consummative perfect, which emphasizes the past, completed action of the session of Christ.

I agree: "the past, "completed action" for "endured" in Heb 12:3.

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

I cannot accept that the "endured" action could be repeated or is on-going when or before the epistle was written. I think the ancient Greek perfect tense simply does not allow that.
As for in the future, it is my opinion, that if an author uses the perfect tense, he is not anticipating that past action to be repeated.

I am trying to figure out where the misunderstanding between you and me lies here, and it occurs to me that it may not be in the perfect tense itself at all. I agree that the specific, one-time action described by the average Greek perfect tense is over, and that its effects may be felt in the present.

In our present verse, then, the specific, one-time act of endurance, whatever it is, against sinful men described in the verse is over; but that does not mean that any and all other instances of having to endure hostility are over. It does not mean that hostilities have necessarily ceased between men and Christ.

That is what I was trying to say on the other thread, using your own example of the ox. I have sacrificed an ox: very well, then, that particular ox has been sacrificed. But that does not mean that I have not sacrificed, am not currently sacrificing, or will never again sacrifice other oxen. And, if we change the verb to something less final than sacrifice, it would not even mean that I have never done it, am not doing it, or will not do it again to that same ox. (For example: I have fed my ox. Well, that feeding is over, but I may feed it again soon.)

So, if you are trying to glean from Hebrews 12.3 that Christ is not currently enduring or never will again endure resistance from sinful men, then I think you are simply mistaken. To me it appears you are reading your definitions of the Greek perfect tense, which are pretty much correct so far as they go, as applying not only to the specific action described by the verb but also to all similar actions, present and future.

If you want a Greek example of the perfect tense applied to a situation that is obviously repeated day after day, here is Luke 2.12:

And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped [εσπαργανωμενον, perfect participle] in cloths and lying in a manger.

The sense here is that the baby has been wrapped up, and therefore is still wrapped up from the perspective of those finding him in the manger. But do you think that this is the last time the writer imagines the baby will ever be swaddled through its entire infancy? I hope not. It is just that the specific, one-time wrapping described by this verb (or participle) in this sentence is over.

Likewise, just because Hebrews 12.3 describes a specific, one-time instance of endurance (which may be an actual incident that the author has in mind or may be just one generic, hypothetical example out of many; the grammar does not care about that) does not mean that Christ is out of the woods, so to speak, never to have to endure such hostility again.

Hope this helps.

Ben.

[Ben C. Smith]

Correct me with evidence if you can (or anyone else who knows ancient Greek), but don't use the English perfect tense in order to do that: it is irrelevant.

Mark 4.29 is another good example:

But when the crop permits he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come [παρεστηκεν].

Harvest will probably come next year, too, and the year after that, and the year after that.... Try Luke 8.20:

And it was reported to him: Your mother and your brothers are standing [εστηκασιν, literally have stood] outside, wishing to see you.

Is this the last time they will ever stand outside again? Luke 5.2:

And he saw two boats lying [εστωτα] at the edge of the lake.

I bet that happens all the time to fishing boats.

But KJV does not work on the Alexandrian retention which has κεκάθικεν. However this site http://www.greekbible.com/ does. But it cannot assign a tense (probably due to some misspelling in the original Greek).

FYI, the verb κεκαθικεν is a perfect indicative active.

Ben.

[DCHindley]

I couldn't find this form of the verb in the Perseus morphological database with or without the movable nu at the end, nor could I find it in KALOS (at least without the movable nu at the end of this form). My old paper verb conjugation chart for NT Greek says this is a 3rd person, 1st perfect, active voice, indicative mood, which my notes say should correspond to "have seated". The Vulgate also uses the Latin 3rd person, active voice, indicative mood, perfect tense for this action. The suggests to me that Jesus was "seated" at the right hand of the throne of God like he had assumed some sort of office, such as a viceroy.

In classical Greek, if I am interpreting my handwritten notes correctly, κεκαθικε(ν) could also be a classical form of the 1st person 1st perfect active in the imperative mood, but that would make no sense in this passage.

DCH

[Bernard Muller]

Luke 2:12

And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped [εσπαργανωμενον, perfect participle] in cloths and lying in a manger.

The sense here is that the baby has been wrapped up,

I think the most correct translation would be "having been wrapped", with respect to the perfect tense, describing one completed action in the past, with the result of it likely to exist in the present or the near future (when the shepherds see the baby). By contrast "lying" is in the present tense.

Mark 4.29 is another good example:

But when the crop permits he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come [παρεστηκεν].

Harvest will probably come next year, too, and the year after that, and the year after that....

Here I would argue for "Mark" making an error, because the harvest comes at the same time "he immediately puts [present tense] in the sickle".
The perfect tense focuses on one past action and does not account for other similar action in the future. That's at least what I think now.

Try Luke 8.20:

And it was reported to him: Your mother and your brothers are standing [εστηκασιν, literally have stood] outside, wishing to see you.

Is this the last time they will ever stand outside again?

"Have stood" describes a past completed action which resulting state continues to exist up to the time the report was made. From my OP, "the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action."

Luke 5.2:

And he saw two boats lying [εστωτα] at the edge of the lake.

I bet that happens all the time to fishing boats.

I think the most correct translation should be "two boats having been laid", again in respect of the perfect tense, resulting in the boats still lying there when Jesus sees them. In other words, Jesus sees the result of an action completed in the past.

Needless to say, all these examples of perfect tense, participle or not, are very confusing for me and my observation for "endured" in Heb 12:3 is on shaky ground, despite the unanimous claims all over the web that the perfect tense describe an action completed in the past (but stressing consequences in the present).
Option 1:
Luke 5:2 and 2:12 (which use the participle as for "endured", probably better translated as "having endured"), in my view, describe a past action, which was completed but whose results do continue up to a (relative) present at least.
So it may be that Jesus, in Heb 12:3, started to endure opposition from sinners in the past and that continued, at least, up to the time Hebrews was written.
Option 2:
Or, if "having endured the opposition of sinners" refers to the crucifixion, completed in the past, then the consequences of that action would be salvation, atonement of sins, etc ... (OP: The force of the perfect indicative is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past, has results existing in the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker)).

In conclusion, I have to withdraw my initial claim, even if I have some chances to be right.

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

In conclusion, I have to withdraw my initial claim, even if I have some chances to be right.

I appreciate your intellectual honesty.

Ben.