Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

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Giuseppe
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Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu May 21, 2015 3:22 am

''Jesus'' means ''YHWH saves''.

For marcionites, the Demiurg surely doesn't save the mankind.

But we are said that in Mcn the principal hero is named ''Jesus'', ''YHWH saves'', beyond any doubt.

Who thinks that marcionites were very early, don't accept easily this fact. And he speculates about possible previous names of deity ''Jesus'' like Chrestos, etc.

But I think that this is still a possible and plausible scenario: to have EARLY marcionites with no problem in naming ''Jesus'' their Son of True God.

Why?

Because in Mcn the only fault of an otherwise totally innocent Jesus is to appear, and only to appear in the flesh, without actually ever to be in the flesh. Jesus is fatally condemned because he is only a phantom (as any phantom worth of this name, someone who by definition should disappoint the expectations of others, especially if Jews).

I suspect that like the appearance of Jesus in the flesh is cause ultimately of his condemnation to death, so also the apparent name of Jesus, ''Jesus Christ'' (='YHWH saves'', ''Jewish Messiah''), is also cause in definitive of his death sentence. I'm saying that the name ''Jesus'', the title ''Christ'', as his flesh, is only an appearance. In Mcn.

If I'm right, the irony in History would be then that what was fabricated totally on paper as an apparent ''YHWH saves'' (that really didn't save because he was not a man at all), was converted contra sensum by Proto-Catholics in a real ''YHWH saves''.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 21, 2015 5:10 am

I've written about this extensively so I don't want to make it same I am taking over another discussion to promulgate my own ideas but if the nomen sacrum is acknowledged to be read 'Iesous' and that's the only possibility that being is a human being. There is no angel named 'Jesus' in the Jewish pantheon.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu May 21, 2015 8:47 am

But yes, in effect I think you are right, It's a true insoluble problem and my solution is not so good as I thought before: it smacks of conspiracy. But why any trace coming back II CE of a original previous name for angel Jesus is not survived?

Should I really believe that before marcionites was already a Jesus cult?

Or should I really get involved in intricate speculations about Isa, Chrestos, other names of Jesus, etc?

No thanks.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

neilgodfrey
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by neilgodfrey » Thu May 21, 2015 12:35 pm

Giuseppe wrote:possibility of pagan influences.
Classicist John Moles argues that the name Jesus should be seen against the Greek myth of Jason the Healer:

Gospel Puns on the Name Above All Names

and

Creativity with the Name of Jesus the Healer in the Gospel of Mark

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 21, 2015 12:51 pm

http://vridar.org/2011/09/04/gospel-pun ... all-names/

This is only one further overreach into stupidity. So IH or IC appear on the page. But it 'really' means Iesous ... which in turm 'really' means healer. Oh Lord when will this end? Why not take it one step further and say 'healer' really means 'huller' which means me which means I am the awaited messiah.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

neilgodfrey
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by neilgodfrey » Thu May 21, 2015 8:09 pm

Secret Alias wrote:http://vridar.org/2011/09/04/gospel-pun ... all-names/

This is only one further overreach into stupidity. So IH or IC appear on the page. But it 'really' means Iesous ... which in turm 'really' means healer. Oh Lord when will this end? Why not take it one step further and say 'healer' really means 'huller' which means me which means I am the awaited messiah.
I'm not sure you had the patience to read Moles' argument. It's not quite the simplistic assertion you seem to think.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Thu May 21, 2015 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 21, 2015 8:13 pm

I did not. I have been engaged in getting an article published in a major journal. Will get back to this next week.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

neilgodfrey
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by neilgodfrey » Thu May 21, 2015 8:14 pm

Secret Alias wrote:I did not. I have been engaged in getting an article published in a major journal. Will get back to this next week.
Yet you called it stupid. Hoo boy.

(I know. You are always too busy. But never too busy to write pages and pages and pages to yourself here.)

(I dropped it in for the benefit of those who are open to the gospel being written with half a mind to Greek cultural environment as well as a Jewish one -- not that the two are necessarily different in the Second Temple era and soon after. You've told us your mind was made up before you even knew what the argument of Moles was and come to think of it I'll be too busy to read pages and pages of whatever you decide to write by way of "getting back to this".)

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu May 21, 2015 8:36 pm

But it does seem stupid. But looks can be deceiving. Sorry that I am a busy attending to the duties of a life not in its twilight. In order to keep track of your selective citations of obscure books and journals I should have to become a librarian like you. But then libraries are also in their twilight.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu May 21, 2015 10:17 pm

I read this, too, about the possible PAGAN origin of name ''Jesus'':
The gospel story may be wholly
explained as the writing down—about 50 years after Paul's
death—of a "mystery play" reflecting the mystical function of
"the Son": God being born in us—as in the Minoan
mysteries. This view related directly with the mysteries of
Asia Minor in which God died and then rose again, and the
Saviour was also called Ieso, one of the Minoan dactyls.

Through adoption of the divine titles, along with "Lord," of
"Messiah" (ho chnstos) and Jes(h)u(s) = Joshua = Ieso, all
meaning Saviour, Paul's teaching made immediate contact
not only with Asia Minor and Greece but also with Hebrews
who had partly adopted Hellenistic mystical ideas
("Jesuists").1
(source: http://phdtree.org/pdf/31565986-on-the- ... e-in-mind/ )

but maybe 'Ieso' as ''one of the Minoan dactyls'' is meant even here as ''healer''.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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