Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Clive
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Clive » Thu May 21, 2015 11:10 pm

"After we had torn ourselves away from them, we put out to sea and sailed straight to Kos. "
More interestingly Moles also argues that the climactic crucifixion and resurrection scene — again with its many punning artifices and links to earlier narrative puns — was originally crafted as the greatest healing act of all. The word puns in these final scenes evoke the healings and raisings performed by Jesus up to that dramatic moment.
Vridar

Kos is very important. Not only did it have a world renowned healing centre, it also had an international music, theatre and story telling centre - all still there, IS not having been there.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"

Giuseppe
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu May 21, 2015 11:58 pm

I should remember this article of G. Ory translated by Salm.

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2012/09/ ... jesus-ory/

I find there particularly interesting this claim:
At the same time, Jesus is not called Yeoshua in the Talmud but Yesou (from the Greek Iesous). This shows that aramaic speaking Jews knew of Jesus only via Greek mediation
about the Talmud, I read this conclusion of more recent research:
External evidence gives independent witness that the earliest core
in this tradition was: "On the Eve of Passover, they hung Jesus of Nazareth for sorcery
and enticing Israel [to idolatry]." ...
The least difficult explanation is therefore that the earliest core of the censored tradition
of Jesus' trial came from the actual court records
from the time of Jesus which succeeding
generations felt they could not change, despite the
difficulties presented by the wording.
Instead, later editors added explanatory phrases during the latter half of the second
century.
source: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/st ... nsored.pdf

beyond the historicist apologies, it would seem that the possibility of use of ''YHWH saves'' as name for Jesus was according only to the interest of Jewish Christians and proto-Catholics, not of Marcionites nor Talmudic writers. Unless the intent was to raise a latent contradiction:

1) a true Jewish messiah, even if he dies, cannot be killed by Jews.

2) Jesus is killed by ''Jews''.

3) therefore: Jesus is not really a ''YHWH saves'' but he is the salvation of another god.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

neilgodfrey
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by neilgodfrey » Fri May 22, 2015 12:11 am

Secret Alias wrote:But it does seem stupid. But looks can be deceiving. Sorry that I am a busy attending to the duties of a life not in its twilight. In order to keep track of your selective citations of obscure books and journals I should have to become a librarian like you. But then libraries are also in their twilight.
Of course anything you haven't bothered to actually read really must "seem stupid". Geez I wish you'd try to be a bit friendlier instead of your constant snide put-downs - not just towards me but also others with a different perspective. By the way where I work there is no theology or biblical studies school or faculty at all and nothing I source is done through my job. And I won't apologize if I happen across something that I think will be of interest to some others here and sharing it for consideration. I happen to enjoy reading and learning from as many sources as possible but you seem to have a problem with that. So why your tiresome put-downs?
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Fri May 22, 2015 12:40 am, edited 4 times in total.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by MrMacSon » Fri May 22, 2015 12:20 am

Giuseppe wrote:I should remember this article of G. Ory translated by Salm.

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2012/09/ ... jesus-ory/

I find there particularly interesting this claim:
At the same time, Jesus is not called Yeoshua in the Talmud but Yesou (from the Greek Iesous). This shows that aramaic speaking Jews knew of Jesus only via Greek mediation
Tenorikuma provided a link to their translation of Ory, too -

http://tinyurl.com/lkl5ewt

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MrMacSon
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by MrMacSon » Fri May 22, 2015 12:24 am

Tertullian's On the Flesh; Chap. 3, in refuting Marcion, refers to angels in relation to Jesus -
"You have sometimes read and believed that the Creator’s angels have been changed into human form, and have even borne about so veritable a body, that Abraham even washed their feet, and Lot was rescued from the Sodomites by their hands; an angel, moreover, wrestled with a man so strenuously with his body, that the latter desired to be let loose, so tightly was he held. Has it, then, been permitted to angels, which are inferior to God, after they have been changed into human bodily form, nevertheless to remain angels? and will you deprive God, their superior, of this faculty, as if Christ could not continue to be God, after His real assumption of the nature of man? Or else, did those angels appear as phantoms of flesh? You will not, however, have the courage to say this; for if it be so held in your belief, that the Creator’s angels are in the same condition as Christ, then Christ will belong to the same God as those angels do, who are like Christ in their condition. If you had not purposely rejected in some instances, and corrupted in others, the Scriptures which are opposed to your opinion, you would have been confuted in this matter by the Gospel of John, when it declares that the Spirit descended in the body of a dove, and sat upon the Lord. When the said Spirit was in this condition, He was as truly a dove as He was also a spirit; nor did He destroy His own proper substance by the assumption of an extraneous substance. But you ask what becomes of the dove’s body, after the return of the Spirit back to heaven, and similarly in the case of the angels. "

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.vii.iii.html
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri May 22, 2015 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

Giuseppe
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Giuseppe » Fri May 22, 2015 12:29 am

yes, but my problem is : could a marcionite be really satisfied with the name ''YHWH saves'' for his object of cult?

I fear no because not all the marcionite people could see the irony that that apparent ''YHWH saves'' was not really the salvation of demiurg YHWH but of deus alienus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by MrMacSon » Fri May 22, 2015 12:31 am

and Chapter 2 on On the Flesh starts with reference to 'the Creator's angel' -
Clearly enough is the nativity announced by Gabriel. But what has he to do with the Creator’s angel?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.vii.ii.html

neilgodfrey
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by neilgodfrey » Fri May 22, 2015 12:41 am

Secret Alias wrote:But then libraries are also in their twilight.
(Incidentally, something I'm a little proud because it's central to my job and that I'd like to share: Libraries are actually in the forefront of digital and online information services which is where the future is, by the way. I never touch "real books" or "real journals" in my job but am in the thick of making scholarship and research data open access digitally/internationally via networked web services and at the same time managing information resources in ways to ensure they last for centuries. People like you have more available at your fingertips than ever before as a result -- though often you won't even know it's a library that's making the data available to you. Granted it's mostly in the sciences at the moment and the long tail of the humanities is still in catch up mode. Libraries are the ones who have been in the vanguard of the whole data sharing and open access movement and it's our agreements with Google, Yahoo and other search engines to crawl our databases and archives that are delivering our services to you. That's not twilight. That's yet one more dawn. I'm a little proud of all this because I've had the good fortune to have been part of one of the many cutting edge pioneering teams in producing this outcome.)

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2015 8:16 am

could a marcionite be really satisfied with the name ''YHWH saves'' for his object of cult?
But if the community was Greek-speaking they may have been unaware of the names implication in Hebrew.

Now with that said I find it highly unlikely because of what Eznik says about the Marcionites preferring the Hebrew text of the Pentateuch over the Greek (something which Eznik finds scandalous and which seems to have contradicted at least a few contemporary Imperial decrees from memory) no less than the fact that Theodotion was both a Marcionite and a translator of the Bible.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri May 22, 2015 9:39 am

But what has he to do with the Creator’s angel?
The Creator's 'fiery' angel according to the Marcionites = Ishu not Jesus (pronounced the same but whose counting).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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