Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 6010
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon May 25, 2015 3:04 am

All ok, but you can assume at least here, for simple sake of argument, the Mcn priority, and discuss my view without no problem. Only as pure experiment of mind.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

andrewcriddle
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon May 25, 2015 6:46 am

DCHindley wrote:
andrewcriddle wrote:I can't find any evidence of a Minoan dactyl called Ieso.
I think he must mean the Cretan Dactyls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactyl_(mythology)

The link seems buggy, but you want to look for a combination of dactyl and mythology.
Cretan Dactyls

In Crete, three Dactyls bore names suggestive of healing: Paionios (later associated with Asclepius), Epimedes, and Iasios. It was said that they had introduced the smithing of copper and iron. Of Iasion it was told (Hesiod, Theogony 970) that he lay with Demeter, a stand-in for Rhea, in a thrice-ploughed field and the Goddess brought forth Ploutos, "wealth", in the form of a bountiful harvest. Zeus struck down this impious archaic figure with a thunderbolt. This is all of the public version of this myth that survives. Doubtless, initiates must have known more.
There is no source for this statement, however.



DCH
Thanks David

The source is Pausanias
As for the Olympic Games, the most learned antiquarians of Elis say that Kronos (Cronus) was the first king of heaven, and that in his honour a temple was built in Olympia by the man of that age, who were named the Golden Race. When Zeus was born, Rhea entrusted the guardianship of her son to the Daktyloi of Ida, who are the same as those called Kouretes (Curetes). They came from Kretan (Cretan) Ida--Herakles (Heracles), Paionaios (Paeonaeus), Epimedes, Iasios and Idas. Herakles being the eldest, matched his brothers, as a game, in a running-race, and crowned the winner with a branch of wild olive, of which they had such a copious supply that they slept on heaps of its leaves while still green. It is said to have been introduced into Greece by Herakles from the land of the Hyperboreans, men living beyond the home of Boreas . . . Herakles of Ida, therefore, has the reputation of being the first to have held, on the occasion I mentioned, the games, and to have called them Oympiakos (the Olympics). So he established the custom of holding them every fifth year, because he and his brothers were five in number.
See http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/DaktylosHerakles.html

Andrew Criddle

Giuseppe
Posts: 6010
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Did marcionites accept a ''YHWH saves'' as their angel?

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:29 am

I think that the best answer was a confusion between Jason and Jesus as both givers of spiritual gifts. Only so the reference to the creator in the etymology of Jesus could be easily ignored by these gnostics who hated the demiurge.


Now, in Isaiah vii, 14, the "son of the virgin" is named Emmanuel, and this is translated "God with us." That is also the meaning of the name Jesus, since in Matthew i, 21, the son of Mary receives this name, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel." In the Septuagint, as we know, Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew Jeschua, which in turn is the same as Jehoschua or Joshua. Joshua, however, means something like "Jahveh is salvation," "Jah-Help," and corresponds to the German name "Gotthilf." We read in Matthew: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus; for he shall save his people from their sins." The name was fairly common among the Jews, and in this connection it is equivalent among the Hellenistic Jews to the name Jason or Jasios, which again is merely a Greek version of Jesus. How did it come about that the unusual name Emmanuel for the saviour of Israel was displaced by the commoner name Jesus?

Various reasons may be assigned for this. First, the fact that in the name Jesus the symbolic significance of salvation in the spiritual and bodily sense, as Isaiah attributed it to the servant of God, was perceived more clearly, especially among the dispersed Jews. Jaso (from iasthai, to heal) was the name of the daughter of the saver and physician Asclepios. He himself was in many places worshipped under the name of Jason. Thus we read in Strabo that temples and the cult of Jason were spread over the whole of Asia, Media, Colchis, Albania, and Iberia, and that Jason enjoyed divine honours also in Thessaly and on the Corinthian gulf, the cult of Phrixos, the ram or lamb, being associated with his (i, 2, 39). Justin tells us that nearly the whole of the west worshipped Jason and built temples to him (xlii, 3), and this is confirmed by Tacitus {Annals, vi, 34). Jason was also supposed to be the founder of the Lemnic festivity, which was celebrated yearly at the beginning of spring, and was believed to impart immortality to those who shared in it. Jasios (Jasion) was called Asclepios, or the "mediating god" related to him in this respect, and the conductor of souls, Hermes, at Crete and in the famous mysteries of Samothracia, which enjoyed the greatest repute about the beginning of the present era, and were frequented by high and low from all the leading countries. Here again the idea of healing and saving is combined in the name, and would easily lead to the giving of the name to the saviour of the Jewish mystery-cult. Epiphanius (HcBres. c, xxix) clearly perceived this connection when he translated the name Jesus "healer" or "physician" (curator, therapeutes). It is certain that this allusion to the healing activity of the servant of God and his affinity with the widely known Jason contributed not a little to the acceptance of the name of Jesus and to its apparent familiarity in ancient times.

(my bold)
Source: Arthur Drews, Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus,trans. Joseph McCabe (Chicago: Open Court Publishing, 1912)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Post Reply