Inquiry regarding the Christ hymn of Philippians 2.6-11.

[Peter Kirby]

the silly story of Jesus in the Jewish temple learning the divine name

What is the story being mentioned here, BTW? I'm not sure.

I think of this one, of course, but don't see reference to "learning the divine name."

Luke 2:41-52

41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. 43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, 45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?” 50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. 51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

This strikes me as an interesting parallel:

Josephus, Life 2

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/autobiog.html

Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high-priests, and principal men of the city, came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

[DCHindley]

the silly story of Jesus in the Jewish temple learning the divine name

What is the story being mentioned here, BTW? I'm not sure.

It's one of the silly stories in the "Toledot Jeschu" ("History of Jesus"). See G R S Mead, Did Jesus live 100 BC? (1903) page 261ff.

DCH

[Peter Kirby]

the silly story of Jesus in the Jewish temple learning the divine name

What is the story being mentioned here, BTW? I'm not sure.

It's one of the silly stories in the "Toledot Jeschu" ("History of Jesus"). See G R S Mead, Did Jesus live 100 BC? (1903) page 261ff.

DCH

Thanks.

[Secret Alias]

I think this cements that Paul is talking about 'the name of yhwh' and 'ish adonai'

'Know that the existence of all things is in the computation [heshbon], and the existence of the computation is in him, blessed be he, and therefore it is called heshbon and the existence of the computation is in him, blessed be he, and therefore it is called heshbon from the expression mahshavah [thought] ... you should know that the secret of heshbon [8 + 300 + 2 + 6 + 50 = 366] is shem yhwh [300 + 40 + 10 + 5 + 6 + 5 = 366] and thus you should contemplate this great principle, that the world is created and is governed by what was prepared at first in the power of the name YHWH (shem yhwh) which is the secret of the computation [sod ha-heshbon] ... Since the world is governed by means of the computation, it is a clear and known matter that it is created, and time as well is in the class of created beings, for the reality of time is consequent to the reality of the sphere, and the reality of the sphere is consequent to the existence of movement, and the existence of movement is consequent to the calculation and the existence of computation is in him may he be blessed and exalted ... Therefore I say to you that the computation attests to the creation of the world, and it indicates that time is created and hence you find the trustworthy witness whose secret is heshbon which is the secret of shem yhwh. If this is so then the great name may he be blessed and exalted moves the entire world [Gikatilla Ginnat Egoz 289 - 90]

Remember to deconstruct this again heshbon means 'computation' or gematria. The entire universe then is 'computed' by the number 366 which is both 'the name yhwh' and 'the man of (the) Lord.' It is also interestingly the first day of the new year. I wonder when it was that Jews discovered that the year had 365 days.

[Peter Kirby]

PEOPLE TOO LAZY TO LEARN ABOUT JUDAISM AND PRETEND THAT CHRISTIANITY MIGHT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED FROM PAGAN MYTHS EVEN THOUGH JEWISH SCRIPTURE IS CITED ON ALMOST EVERY PAGE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT OR ALLUDED TO IN SOME WAY AND JEWISH CULTURE AS SUCH SET ITSELF APART FROM PAGAN CULTURE

As if everyone who doesn't agree with you, in general or in particular, falls into this category?

[Stephan Huller]

no I am wrong most of the time. We have to get rid of Carrier's pre-existent Jesus Logos and the idea that Jesus derived from pagan gods. Jesus isn't the name above all names.

[Peter Kirby]

We have to get rid of ... the idea that Jesus derived from pagan gods.

Sure. Agreed.

Carrier's pre-existent Jesus Logos

IDK. This one does have some support in Philo. Nobody can argue about the "Logos" bit being pre-Christian and influencing Christianity.

The idea that the name "Joshua" was special for Philo is much more controversial and controvertible.

Jesus isn't the name above all names.

Doesn't it just revert to being kyrios ("Lord"), then--the other half of the confession, "Jesus is lord"? If not, why not?

[Unless we're just crediting Ben C. Smith's that YHWH put his little bit in the name and that's the reference.]

You think it was "Ish" (the Hebrew for 'man') written here in Philippians (right?), but we have no real evidence of that, sadly.

Of course there's also the possibility that a historical Jesus lent his name to the myth... but of course that's been part of your point the whole time.

Or that the name "Jesus" wasn't a super-special name at all but for whatever random reason was attached to the myth (...something had to be, right?).

I think a problem here is that you've done a terrible job at presenting your ideas. I'm sorry but I still don't know how to find the essentials of what I would need to know to evaluate your ideas about the "Man" concept, and that's despite following you fairly closely on this forum (I read everything here, after all). And it shouldn't be this hard. You should be able to compile a short list of relevant texts that help substantiate the idea. Seems to be much needed.

I also can't get as worked up as you can over this issue. Fundamentally I'm not convinced it changes very much even if the name originally were "Ish" or something else other than Jesus. But first thing's first, and that's making a solid case that it was.

[Peter Kirby]

There was only one original Christian Myth

Why can't there be two or more "original" myths contributing to Christianity?

[DCHindley]

I think this cements that Paul is talking about 'the name of yhwh' and 'ish adonai'

'Know that the existence of all things is in the computation [heshbon], and the existence of the computation is in him, blessed be he, and therefore it is called heshbon and the existence of the computation is in him, blessed be he, and therefore it is called heshbon from the expression mahshavah [thought] ... you should know that the secret of heshbon [8 + 300 + 2 + 6 + 50 = 366] is shem yhwh [300 + 40 + 10 + 5 + 6 + 5 = 366] and thus you should contemplate this great principle, that the world is created and is governed by what was prepared at first in the power of the name YHWH (shem yhwh) which is the secret of the computation [sod ha-heshbon] ... Since the world is governed by means of the computation, it is a clear and known matter that it is created, and time as well is in the class of created beings, for the reality of time is consequent to the reality of the sphere, and the reality of the sphere is consequent to the existence of movement, and the existence of movement is consequent to the calculation and the existence of computation is in him may he be blessed and exalted ... Therefore I say to you that the computation attests to the creation of the world, and it indicates that time is created and hence you find the trustworthy witness whose secret is heshbon which is the secret of shem yhwh. If this is so then the great name may he be blessed and exalted moves the entire world [Gikatilla Ginnat Egoz 289 - 90]

Remember to deconstruct this again heshbon means 'computation' or gematria. The entire universe then is 'computed' by the number 366 which is both 'the name yhwh' and 'the man of (the) Lord.' It is also interestingly the first day of the new year. I wonder when it was that Jews discovered that the year had 365 days.

IIUC, the title Ginnat Egoz means "garden of nuts", quite apt in this forum (Peter excepted, of course).

The author, Joseph ben Abraham Gikatilla, was a Spanish Kaballist in the late 13th century and a few years after. All I know comes from the Wiki article on the author Gikatilla, as it currently exists, so caveat emptor (buyer beware). In the original context, Egoz ("nuts", the edible nuggets of goodness most of us can eat safely) was a metaphor for the fruits of the pursuit of Ginnat (these are the initials of the Hebrew words "Gemaṭria," "Noṭarḳon," "Temurah").

At least we now know where Mr. Huller may be going with his latest bout of manic-like free association. But that depresses me ...

DCH

[Secret Alias]

But this is precisely why I bring up the concept of 'white people' all the time. When studying early Christianity the 'white' paradigm (not distinguishing now between 'historicists' and 'mythicists' for a moment because IMO they are two sides of the same 'white' coin) develops from the preferences, prejudices - in short 'what is known' by the collective knowledge of people who were ultimately influenced by European cultural paradigms. That boils down to one of two basic possibilities:

1. the idea that Christianity 'really came from' a historical Jesus
2. the idea is a myth which developed from 'myths' known to white people.

So we have various authors arguing, debating, discussing a vast pool of knowledge to figure out 'what is possible' basically with early Christianity. The most influential white people basically tap into the ideas that the most number of other white people understand and find 'convincing.' This is how 'what happened in early Christianity' is decided.

So right now there are still more white people who think that Jesus was a historical person (perhaps owing to the fact that more of them are believers) and now the best explanation for a historical Jesus using various 'shared' myths' or ideas is ascendant. In a few years when more white people are atheists different ideas from the pool of shared ideas among with people will become ascendant. Perhaps myths from this or that pagan culture. It's sort of like an election where the 'most viable candidate' appeals to the largest number of constituents only these are ideas.

The most viable candidate here has to be 'understood' or at least acknowledged. To have the smartest guy in the room (a genius let's say who could turn the country around and bring it back to a golden age) speak only Hindi, eschew baseball, kissing babies etc would make him a bad candidate for an election. In the same way exclusively Jewish ideas don't work in these debates, discussions about early Christianity because - like the Hindi only speaking electoral candidate - they have to be understood in order to be appreciated.

Now with the specific topic of Philippians 2:6 - 11. It's a fucking Jewish concept. It clearly derives its origin or its launching pad from Isa 45:23. The very idea of a mystical interest in names is Jewish through and through so the solution to what is the 'name above all names' can't be found within (a) paganism (b) modern dentistry (c) taxidermy etc It comes from a much smaller pool that the 'things that white people know about' and discuss among each other. It is decided by what Jews have always believed. That's it.

It's been presented here and elsewhere that 'Jesus' - i.e. the Greek translation of Joshua - might be the name. The logic behind this assumption is that Paul has in mind is the being referenced by the nomen sacrum IC. It is hard to argue with that logic given the context of the passage. But then we are faced with the obvious difficulty that Jews and Isaiah clearly have a pre-existent mystical attachment to names - assumptions if you will - which make certain that it has something to do with YHWH. The most viable candidate here is simply YHWH itself. This is clearly the name whom Isaiah has in mind and Jewish tradition in the broader sense. But it doesn't make sense within the immediate context of what Paul is talking about. So we arrive at something of a stalemate. On the one hand the being called IC in the manuscripts is clearly meant by Paul and on the other the Jews have always had in mind the name YHWH.

The solution I have brought up - and I think it is a viable solution - is that Jewish mystical tradition didn't merely see YHWH as the name above all names. The earliest circles of initiates into kabbalah preserved a tradition where the 'name yhwh' - a name which had the value of 366 was taken to be 'the key' to unlock the mystery of the entire universe. As noted above and in many other places the nomen sacrum works much better as a translation of eesh the sacred heavenly being called man after whom humanity was created. Interestingly the 'name yhwh' is taken to a numerological equivalent of the man of (the) Lord which in turn explains the name Ishu (His Man).

If you read Moriok's book you realize that this was not an idea that Gikatilla 'made up' in his own head but received as tradition from at least his teacher and more than likely a tradition which dated back to a much earlier period. Here is a long section to provide some context against DCH typical reactionary logic:

2.1 Tzerufei 'Otiyyot in Ginnat 'Egoz and Sha' ar haNiqqud

The young Gikatilla does not have his origin in the mainstream kabbalah in Castile, but belongs to a very small elitist circle inspired by Barukh Togarmi' s enigmatic commentary on Sefer Yetzirah. Abulafia designated this kabbalist as his teacher nin (my teacher) 10 and he presumably studied with him in Barcelona for a period around 1270. Togarmi's teachings are close to those of the Hasidei Ashkenaz; his ideas have their own inner logic and do not resemble the common Catalonian style of kabbalah at that time."

After studying with Togarmi in Barcelona, Abulafia left for Castile, where he had Gikatilla as a student (around 1274). However, we find remnants of Togarmi' s linguistic system in Gikatilla' s work, which do not appear in Abulafia' s writings. Ginnat 'Egoz can even be described as a further elaboration of Togarmi' s manifesto on Sefer Yetzirah. Another representative of this mystical stream with a tendency to Neopythagoreanism and its numerical mysticism is represented by R. Natan ben Sa'adia Har'ar, another student of Abulafia. It is also possible to see Togarmi's influence in the writings of R. Isaac of Acre 12 who studied many different kabbalistic schools.

What happened between 1270 and 1275 and the transition from Barcelona to Castile regarding this small kabbalistic circle with its deep interest in linguistic matters and transformative revelation through mystical techniques, is still a matter for further research. 13 However, we can see a fundamental change in the definition of kabba-
lah and its nature. Both Gikatilla and de Leon were deeply involved in this highly energetic literature with its Neopythagorean issues and later transferred these techniques from the linguistic to the sefirotic realm. Gikatilla composed works of various lengths on the matter of divine names within his changing hermeneutical system, raging between one page and his opus magnum Sha 'arei 'Orah.

The manipulation of language is one of the main aspects of the linguistic techniques as exemplified in Togarmi and Ginnat 'Egoz. 14 The intellectual play with the text opens up the individual creativity and does not describe a fixed frame for the knowledge to be achieved. The term nnso or mnriDa (key or keys) therefore plays a very important role in Togarmi and Abulafia, who wrote several treatises with this term in the title, 15 and in Gikatilla' s works. Togarmi even named his treatise: x"ts> -\va 'in "'DQ rtapn JTinnso "ido m 'Q-uin (This is the book of the keys of kabbalah according to Barukh Togarmi, cantor.)

Another example of this development is to be found in R. Azriel of Gerona who saw in the art of letter combination the key to all the 70 language derived from the language of the Torah, i.e. Hebrew: ' 6

(1) ... and there exists no speech in any language that is not derived from this verse that consists the four divine Names which are: spirit, wisdom, understanding and knowledge ... [regarding the verse, Ezra 2: 2] "For Mordechai Bilshan ..." [interpreted here as - "Mordechai, the expert in languages"] is called for his knowledge of the seventy language [according to bMenahot 65a]. But this does not mean that he traveled far and wide to learn each nation's language, rather he learned the key [to the method] of letter combination that forms all languages which are included in the Torah ... This statement indicates that all languages are implied in the Torah, were it not so it would be impossible [for the Talmudic sages] to explain the Hebrew language by means of a foreign language. 17

We may assume a profound influence from Ashkenaz and from Babylonian exegesis on these linguistic activities. 18 The various uses of the "clue/key" demonstrate that such techniques open the way to an exoteric kind of knowledge. Whereas Origen, in his key parable, esp. in his Commentary on Psalms, talks about different keys to different rooms, Abulafia and Togarmi present an overall linguistic key, which opens up a whole system. The mystic enters into a state of mind where he does not control language, but language controls him. Oral transmission is a very important basis for such an initiation, as the teachings of those kabbalists are hardly committed to writing. We could also describe this as an alternative chain of transmission in comparison with the famous dictum in mAvot 1: l 19 as in other magical books (Sefer haRazim for example).

Togarmi goes on to write in his commentary on Sefer Yetzirah:

(2) This is a commentary on Sefer Yetzirah which we received in our hands [by way of tradition] from the mouth of the Rabbi Barukh of blessed memory, including three methods of kabbalah: Gematria and Notarikon and Temurah (= 1367 = 1+367 = 368). And their secret is the spirit of the living god (Ruah 'Elohim Hayyim = 368), which is found in the calculation {beHeshbon = 368) of "in book and ink" (beSefer weDyyio = 368), which correspond to each other [lit. one by one] in their sum. This means that with the help of corresponding letter combination (beTzeruf = 368) the name YHWH {haShem YHWH) will be found, and therefore it is said: "Barukh is he, who comes in the name of YHWH" {beShem YHWH = 368).

Togarmi 's passage is based on the Gematria: vn 1DCO (in book and ink) = prwm (in the sum) = 0"n DTi^N nn (spirit of [the] living god) = 368 and the numerical value of the linguistic devices: miam iipnoin xnaa'i (Gematria and Notarikon and Temurah) - 1367 (1+367 = 368). In Gematria one can turn the thousand into one and add it to the overall sum. Thus the sum of 368 is also found in the linguistic devices, the triad mentioned above and the term 21 mrr DW3 (in the name of YHWH). Within the first few lines we obtain an impressive amount of knowledge about Togarmi's system. With the help of the linguistic techniques Gematria} 1 Notarikon and Temurah (= 1367 = 1+367 = 368) we achieve a correlational (irw 1 ? irm, one by one) access to the divine realm (o"n DTI7N nn = 368). The deity itself is found within these techniques (ynwm = 368 = nmn) and reveals God His divine name (mn 1 umi = 368) to the author of the text (Tm is a clear indication that he is talking about himself). Togarmi or his student have received those traditions orally ("'D») and are now giving the basic keys to the initiated. With the help of these keys, 23 the mystic can gain access to the spirit of the living God according to Sefer Yetzirah, which has such mystical techniques as its main topics. However, with Togarmi such techniques became purely mathematical (pn^n) and the different keys are various mathematical operations applied as an exegetical method. By such technical hermeneutics the mystic can obtain the power of the divine name and use that power in prophecy. This experience reveals a static truth, which contains all (linguistic and ontological) reality 24 (Kin 13 "73m ^33, He is in everything and everything is in Him) 25 of which the final secret will only be revealed orally. 26

Abulafia mentions several times the importance of Gematrla and Tzeruf 'Otiyyot as the "root" of knowledge of the secrets of all wisdom (Qabbalah). In 'Imrei Shefer we read:

(3) Know and understand from this conclusion that [the method ot] letter combination is the root of the knowledge all orders of wisdom, which the Name [i.e. God] has revealed to human beings. Moreover, this is true just [of letters] without vowel points; but [letters] with their vocalization lead to endless calculation.

Gikatilla expresses this idea in Ginnat 'Egoz as follows (p. 42):

(4) We must be initiated (Lehit'orer) again of a very honorable secret [issue]: the secrets of the unique Name are specially elucidated in the secret of three methods of the kabbalah, which are Gematria, Natarikon, Temurah. In this way we have to be initiated into the secret of Gematria, which is the secret of calculation.

Gikatilla however connects the linguistic techniques explicitly with "the secrets of the name" and elaborates further on the Tetragrammaton and goes on to extend it to four forms n"\ V'n 1 , n""i;r and "\ Later on he deals with the different numerical values of these names, written in various manners (plene or in letters only) and their function in the emanational process. This extension of the divine names has to be performed according to certain secret rules, which are only known by the initiated {Ginnat 'Egoz, p. 42):

(5) Know that the secret of the unique Name [YHWH] is 26, which is the known and fixed key (Simon) to interpret the letters which are the secret of its use (Shimush) YHWH, YHW, YH, Y. This is the secret of the use of the unique Name with the help of the necessary 29 (rraian) secret, and the first three methods which we use throughout our study.

These techniques however, create a circle for a small elite of initiated. The initiated need certain knowledge of hermeneutical techniques to discover 34 the relevant Gematriot, which create a new kind of wisdom. This knowledge opens up the way to an infinite creativity, which is already concealed in Sefer Yetzirah and in linguistic theories to the vision of Ezekiel (n33nn n»5?» = 682 = cPl^a). The transformative knowledge 5 leads the mystic to becoming himself the chariot of the divine presence (n33"i», chariot); we could also name this process a certain kind of apotheosis.

I think Philippians 2:6 - 11 has to be universally acknowledged to develop from a typical Jewish interest in the magical power of names. It also has something to do with YHWH. As such the interpretation of Isaiah 45:23 needs to follow 'typical' Jewish interpretations of YHWH of which the circle of Torgami is one which we know of.