What You Do To Peter You Must Do To Paul: the forgery question

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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arnoldo wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:The Fabricated Paul: Early Christianity in the Twilight; Hermann Detering (1995) Links to the rest are here
Here a review of Detering's views on Paul by JPH.
. . His case against Pauline authenticity is a failure, and shall remain so.
Hermann Detering's Falsified Paul: A Critique
JPH has virtually done a theological review: his references to 'historicity' of the Pauline epistles (esp Acts) are superficial.

The conclusion is an appeal to tradition and authority, and JPH fails to meet a burden of proof he himself sets. -
Now it is time for some concluding remarks.

To operate against a strong consensus position -- in this case, one which sees Paul as at least the author of seven of 13 letters in the NT, if not more -- requires a great deal of work.

Detering has come nowhere near meeting this burden.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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Bernard Muller wrote:Do you know any scholars who did entertain your views that Paul wrote some of his letters after 70, and visited or planned to visit Jerusalem then?
And I thought you abandoned that idea and kept two options: a fabricated Paul (after 70) or a true Paul active in the 40's and 50's.
(1) Probably Robert Price, but he'll believe anything.
(2) Indeed I do think the best two options are a pre-70 letter writer or a post-70 pseudepigraphical corpus (... and it's not like we don't have plenty of examples for the latter type of hypothesis).
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stephan happy huller
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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Again I don't know why if you have Marcion and the Tatianites and many others rejecting Acts as a 'spurious codex' (De Recta in Deum Fide) and specifically denying the Catholic version of Paul and their Pauline collection how people can walk around with such certainty about who Paul was. It's a lot like the Richard Gere gerbil story. Is the gerbil story completely made up? Is it true only insofar at it tells us about his sexuality - i.e. he was experimental, deviant, homosexual? Or is it actually true? I view the entire question of the identity of Paul exactly like I do the Richard Gere gerbil story. I don't know the answer but I have my doubts.

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dewitness
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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Peter Kirby wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:Do you know any scholars who did entertain your views that Paul wrote some of his letters after 70, and visited or planned to visit Jerusalem then?
And I thought you abandoned that idea and kept two options: a fabricated Paul (after 70) or a true Paul active in the 40's and 50's.
(1) Probably Robert Price, but he'll believe anything.
(2) Indeed I do think the best two options are a pre-70 letter writer or a post-70 pseudepigraphical corpus (... and it's not like we don't have plenty of examples for the latter type of hypothesis).
The best option is a fabricated Paul after 70 CE.

The very contents of all the Pauline letters show that all the authors knew of the stories of Jesus which were composed after c70 CE and that Paul 'met' with fiction characters only in the Gospels.;.
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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I really do see your point, dewitness, but there are some who would say that you are begging the question (the answer to which is important) when you state your premise that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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stephan happy huller wrote:Again I don't know why if you have Marcion and the Tatianites and many others rejecting Acts as a 'spurious codex' (De Recta in Deum Fide) and specifically denying the Catholic version of Paul and their Pauline collection how people can walk around with such certainty about who Paul was.
Once you've set aside the authenticity of the epistles and the veracity of the Acts (of the Apostles & of Paul), you do indeed have nothing (with overtures of Simon Magus being just the only sliver of light in a very dark room). Outside of these sources...

Paul shows up first as some shadowy writer of letters who is known by no other means, an epistolary apostle who mention Ephesians everywhere (Ignatius), wrote one letter to the Corinthians (Clement), and wrote multiple letters to Philippians (Polycarp). The Scillitan martyrs refer to 'books and epistles of Paul, a just man.' Abercius of Hierapolis on his tomb warbles about 'Having Paul as a companion, everywhere faith led the way.' In the second half of the second century, you see him already the subject of misunderstanding while being elevated to scripture in 2 Peter, where Paul 'in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.'

Famously, Tertullian wrestles with Paul, callling him the "apostle of the heretics" (A.M. 3.5), siding with Acts over the Epistles to say that Paul needed the blessing of the Twelve for authority, and even introducing the hypothetical that Paul may be a false prophet of "your other god" (the Demiurge) in his polemic. Clement of Alexandria affirms his affinity to another "heretic" and "Gnostic" who was in Rome in the first half of the second century, this time Valentinus, who is claimed to have apostolic succession to Paul through Theudas (Strom. 7.17). Notably Irenaeus challenges the heretics to produce any better lineage than that of Peter and Clement or John and Polycarp, not attempting to find authority in Paul, and Hippolytus of Rome tells of the apostolic succession of the Twelve without mentioning Paul. Polycrates of Ephesus refers to John and several other bishops as their founding figures, but not Paul, who was supposed to have labored originally in the region. The Apocalypse of John shows no sign of knowing the apostle who preached to the churches addressed.

Instead his fame first emerges in the see of Rome, where Valentinus and Marcion taught, and where he is paired off with Peter by their catholic opponents, undoubtedly to squelch his heretical overtones and bring him into harmony with the emerging catholic church. This is seen in both pseudepigrapha claimed to witness Paul's existence, 1 Clement and the Ignatiana, which both speak of Paul and Peter together in the same breath, a situation that can be seen as very simply derivative of the domestication of Paul effected by the Acts of Apostles in which Paul is subordinated to the Twelve, whereby we cannot date either of these texts any sooner than we can date the Acts of the Apostles itself (nor can we understand correctly why their knowledge of Peter and Paul is so muted and entirely mediated by prior literary forms except that the authors knew both Peter and Paul through books).
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dewitness
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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Peter Kirby wrote:I really do see your point, dewitness, but there are some who would say that you are begging the question (the answer to which is important) when you state your premise that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels.
Who are those "imaginary" people?

I have not stated " that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels".

Your imagination has gone wild.
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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dewitness wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:I really do see your point, dewitness, but there are some who would say that you are begging the question (the answer to which is important) when you state your premise that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels.
I have not stated " that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels".
You insult our intelligence. That was your premise. I understand that the idea of having an honest conversation is foreign to you, but the human thing to do would be to acknowledge your premise and talk about it.
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dewitness
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

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Peter Kirby wrote:
dewitness wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:I really do see your point, dewitness, but there are some who would say that you are begging the question (the answer to which is important) when you state your premise that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels.
I have not stated " that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels".
You insult our intelligence. That was your premise. I understand that the idea of having an honest conversation is foreign to you, but the human thing to do would be to acknowledge your premise and talk about it.
Again, you attempt to introduce fallacious statements.

I have not stated " that the stories of Jesus had no existence before they achieved literary form in the Gospels".
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by stephan happy huller »

The problem is always - why did the heretics reject Acts outright if it contained some truth - i.e. Saul to Paul? Irenaeus chapter 3 Against Heresies seems to imply that the heretics rejected everything about our inherited picture of Paul from our canon. Tertullian emphasizes that they didn't even offer any clues as to his identity. The apostle - like Jesus - was a fugitive.
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