What You Do To Peter You Must Do To Paul: the forgery question

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Dating, Authorship, and Meaning of the Pauline Epist

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote:How about a 4th possibility?

'Paul' is a composite of two early christian figures. A pre-70 c.e. 'Paul' and a post 70 c.e. 'Paul'. Actually, perhaps this two 'Paul' suggestion ties in with your 2nd possibility. The pseudonym, 'Paul', being used for not one one figure but two figures, a composite NT 'Paul'.

This would mean that the NT 'history' of early christianity is actually a condensed history. A longer development period that has been condensed, reduced. Ruling out a pre-70 c.e. gestation period seems, to my thinking, to go against the whole thrust of the NT story. The story was set pre-70 c.e. One would have to have a very good argument to write off a period of Jewish history that the NT writers, evidently, found some value in.

Thus, a two 'Paul' solution, an early 'Paul', and a late 'Paul', would go a long way to accommodate/reconcile the various pre and post 70 c.e. arguments.
This is an interesting, seemingly-relevant passage in Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of John (Book I)
5. All Scripture is Gospel; But the Gospels are Distinguished Above Other Scriptures.

Here, however, some one may object, appealing to the notion just put forward of the unfolding of the first fruits last, and may say that the Acts and the letters of the Apostles came after the Gospels, and that this destroys our argument to the effect that the Gospel is the first fruits of all Scripture. To this we must reply that it is the conviction of men who are wise in Christ, who have profited by those epistles which are current, and who see them to be vouched for by the testimonies deposited in the law and the prophets, that the apostolic writings are to be pronounced wise and worthy of belief, and that they have great authority, but that they are not on the same level with that "Thus says the Lord Almighty." 2 Corinthians 6:18 Consider on this point the language of St. Paul. When he declares that 2 Timothy 3:16 "Every Scripture is inspired of God and profitable", does he include his own writings? Or does he not include his dictum, 1 Corinthians 7:12 "I say, and not the Lord", and 1 Corinthians 7:17 "So I ordain in all the churches", and 2 Timothy 3:11 "What things I suffered at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra", and similar things which he writes in virtue of his own authority, and which do not quite possess the character of words flowing from divine inspiration. Must we also show that the old Scripture is not Gospel, since it does not point out the Coming One, but only foretells Him and heralds His coming at a future time; but that all the new Scripture is the Gospel.

... we shall not hesitate to find Gospel in such discourse also as is not narrative but hortatory and intended to strengthen belief in the mission of Jesus; and thus we shall arrive at the position that whatever was written by the Apostles is Gospel. As to this second definition, it might be objected that the Epistles are not entitled Gospel, and that we are wrong in applying the name of Gospel to the whole of the New Testament. But to this we answer that it happens not unfrequently in Scripture when two or more persons or things are named by the same name, the name attaches itself most significantly to one of those things or persons. Thus the Saviour says, Matthew 23:8-9 "Call no man Master upon the earth"; while the Apostle says that Masters have been appointed in the Church. These latter accordingly will not be Masters in the strict sense of the dictum of the Gospel.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm
Bernard Muller
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by Bernard Muller »

I do not agree (as also many scholars) with Goodacre about the placement of Galatians. It should be placed right before Romans.
I listed my many reasons here: http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3xx.html
For 1 Corinthians & 2 Corinthians, I found out each of them are actually 3 letters put together, with some interpolations.
Here are some explanations:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p47.htm
For the ones interested (but there is little chance to have some on this forum!), from these letters, and yes, using Acts also, I reconstructed Paul's journeys:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p45.htm
Finally, here is my dating for these letters and Hebrews:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p48.htm

I can direct anyone interested to parts of my website for the justifications of all that.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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Peter Kirby
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Re: authorship of the Pauline epistles

Post by Peter Kirby »

What evidence is there that we actually have "authentic" or "genuine" epistles of Paul?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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maryhelena
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Re: authorship of the Pauline epistles

Post by maryhelena »

Peter Kirby wrote:What evidence is there that we actually have "authentic" or "genuine" epistles of Paul?
What evidence is there that the NT figure of Paul was a real flesh and blood figure?

Surely, that is the first step in this investigation? It is only when that issue is established that the question arises about whether or not such a figure wrote the epistles, or were the epistles attributed to him. Answering these secondary questions leading to further questions on dating the epistles. Seems to me that the cart is being put before the horse in this sort of debate - leading to no forward movement whatsoever regarding early christian origins. A standstill arguing over assumptions...

The NT is a story. It is an origin story about early christian beginnings. It is not a history about early christian origins. Cherry-picking that story, taking any part of that Christian origin story as history, and one is taking the search for early Christian origins into a cul-de-sac. There is a nice sandpit in that cul-de-sac in which all assumption holders can build sandcastles. Yes, sandcastle assumptions can be knocked down by a kick or two - but more sandcastles spring up ad-infinitum. Playing with the shifting sand of assumptions is, in the search for early christian origins, child's play. Serious players in the search for early christian origins have to leave the safety, and comfort, of that NT sandpit behind them. The NT stories are for meaning, for ideas, not for history.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by stephan happy huller »

Tertullian (Against Marcion 5:1) makes clear that the Marcionites viewed him as a person but one for whose identity was deliberately obscured. The closest thing I can think of is the occultated imam of Shi'i Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation or perhaps the doctrine of taqiyah or dissimulation among the Druze and Bahais - i.e. in order for them to preserve the secrecy of their faith, they must pretend to accept the faith of the ruling majority. Any crpyto-faith is going to have the same understanding of their founder.
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PhilosopherJay
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Re: authorship of the Pauline epistles

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Maryhelena,

Good point.
I think the only evidence for the existence of Paul is the poor and crazy quality of the letters attributed to him. We may suppose that someone writing in his name would have polished them to make them at least make some kind of sense and would not have included so many contradictions, lapses, leaps and garbage.
However the terribly illogical state of the letters can be better explained by multiple editings by a variety of untalented and psychologically disturbed writers. This would eliminate the need to postulate a single crazy Paul.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
maryhelena wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:What evidence is there that we actually have "authentic" or "genuine" epistles of Paul?
What evidence is there that the NT figure of Paul was a real flesh and blood figure?

Surely, that is the first step in this investigation? It is only when that issue is established that the question arises about whether or not such a figure wrote the epistles, or were the epistles attributed to him. Answering these secondary questions leading to further questions on dating the epistles. Seems to me that the cart is being put before the horse in this sort of debate - leading to no forward movement whatsoever regarding early christian origins. A standstill arguing over assumptions...

The NT is a story. It is an origin story about early christian beginnings. It is not a history about early christian origins. Cherry-picking that story, taking any part of that Christian origin story as history, and one is taking the search for early Christian origins into a cul-de-sac. There is a nice sandpit in that cul-de-sac in which all assumption holders can build sandcastles. Yes, sandcastle assumptions can be knocked down by a kick or two - but more sandcastles spring up ad-infinitum. Playing with the shifting sand of assumptions is, in the search for early christian origins, child's play. Serious players in the search for early christian origins have to leave the safety, and comfort, of that NT sandpit behind them. The NT stories are for meaning, for ideas, not for history.
dewitness
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Re: authorship of the Pauline epistles

Post by dewitness »

Peter Kirby wrote:What evidence is there that we actually have "authentic" or "genuine" epistles of Paul?
The very posters who vehemently argue for authentic or genuine epistles will not ever provide any evidence.

It is already known that in the Canon itself, in Acts of the Apostles, there is ZERO corroborative evidence that Saul/Paul wrote Epistles to Churches up to c 59-62 CE.

If Saul/Paul did live and did write Epistles they were NOT composed before c 59-62 CE.

Essentially, all Pauline letters claimed to be composed before c 59-62 CE are most likely forgeries or falsely attributed to Saul/Paul.

Based on Acts of the Apostles, It can therefore be logically deduced that the Epistles to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Thessalonians and Philemon are forgeries or falsely attributed to Saul/Paul as soon as it is stated that they were composed before c 59-62 CE.

The author of Acts is claimed to be a very close companion of Saul/ Paul and wrote extensively about him from his supposed persecution of the Jesus cult, his blinding light conversion, his preaching, his miracles, travels and trials up to the time in Rome and never once admitted that Saul/Paul wrote a single letter to any Church anywhere.

The following are forgeries or falsely attributed to Saul/Paul in Acts.

First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
Philippians (ca. 52-54 AD)
Philemon (ca. 52-54 AD)
First Corinthians (ca. 53-54 AD)
Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
Second Corinthians (ca. 55-56 AD)
Romans (ca. 55-58 AD)
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maryhelena
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Re: authorship of the Pauline epistles

Post by maryhelena »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi Maryhelena,

Good point.
I think the only evidence for the existence of Paul is the poor and crazy quality of the letters attributed to him. We may suppose that someone writing in his name would have polished them to make them at least make some kind of sense and would not have included so many contradictions, lapses, leaps and garbage.
However the terribly illogical state of the letters can be better explained by multiple editings by a variety of untalented and psychologically disturbed writers. This would eliminate the need to postulate a single crazy Paul.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Hi, Philosopher Jay

Love it - "eliminate the need to postulate a single crazy Paul"..... :thumbup:

Seems, to me, that "Paul" is just the catch all basket, the hold-all, that gets filled with whatever it takes to round out the early Christian origin story. No striving for accuracy, no avoidance of contradictions - and abracadabra - what an impenetrable door has been built - a door that securely denies access to early Christian history.

maryhelena wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:What evidence is there that we actually have "authentic" or "genuine" epistles of Paul?
What evidence is there that the NT figure of Paul was a real flesh and blood figure?

Surely, that is the first step in this investigation? It is only when that issue is established that the question arises about whether or not such a figure wrote the epistles, or were the epistles attributed to him. Answering these secondary questions leading to further questions on dating the epistles. Seems to me that the cart is being put before the horse in this sort of debate - leading to no forward movement whatsoever regarding early christian origins. A standstill arguing over assumptions...

The NT is a story. It is an origin story about early christian beginnings. It is not a history about early christian origins. Cherry-picking that story, taking any part of that Christian origin story as history, and one is taking the search for early Christian origins into a cul-de-sac. There is a nice sandpit in that cul-de-sac in which all assumption holders can build sandcastles. Yes, sandcastle assumptions can be knocked down by a kick or two - but more sandcastles spring up ad-infinitum. Playing with the shifting sand of assumptions is, in the search for early christian origins, child's play. Serious players in the search for early christian origins have to leave the safety, and comfort, of that NT sandpit behind them. The NT stories are for meaning, for ideas, not for history.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
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Peter Kirby
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Re: authorship of the Pauline epistles

Post by Peter Kirby »

maryhelena wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:What evidence is there that we actually have "authentic" or "genuine" epistles of Paul?
What evidence is there that the NT figure of Paul was a real flesh and blood figure?

Surely, that is the first step in this investigation? It is only when that issue is established that the question arises about whether or not such a figure wrote the epistles, or were the epistles attributed to him.
As Jay responds, "I think the only evidence for the existence of Paul is the ................ letters attributed to him."

To me, the first question is whether the epistles are "authentic," whether they are the correspondence addressing real situations written occasionally to real recipients. If they are, then "Paul," meaning the writer of such actual letters, existed. We don't need to establish any level of similarity between the writer and some "flesh and blood figure" because the writer of these letters to churches, if they are indeed genuine in their epistolary form, is immediately understood as "Paul," and people who can pick up a writing instrument to send a letter tend to have some flesh and some blood.

If they are not authentic or genuine, or cannot be established to be, and if they are only attributed to a person named Paul but are not actually being written in the heat of the situations implied and not actually written to the churches described, then the second question becomes whether Paul existed at all, given that the letters attributed to a Paul are pseudepigraphical.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
dewitness
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Re: evidence of an earthly human Jesus in the Pauline epistl

Post by dewitness »

In Acts of the Apostles, up to the very last chapter, it is admitted that there was No letter from anyone to those in Rome when Saul/Paul arrived there.

Acts 28:21 KJV
And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee...
UP to c 59-62 CE, when Festus was governor of Judea, No letters to Churches were composed by Saul/Paul.

Now, in Apologetic writings, it is claimed Paul was ALIVE after gLuke was composed and that the Pauline Epistles were composed AFTER Revelation by John.

Plus, there are Christian writers who wrote nothing of the Pauline Corpus and show no influence at all of the teachings in the Epistles as late as the late 3rd century.

But most devastating is that the first writing to mention by name all the Epistles to the Churches and the Pastorals also claimed Jesus was crucified c 50 CE which means that the Pauline Corpus history is very questionable.

The abundance of evidence do support that ALL so-called Pauline Epistles presumed to be composed before c 59-62 CE are forgeries or falsely attributed to Saul/Paul.
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