Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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stephan happy huller
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

Post by stephan happy huller »

And let's talk about Epiphanius. His testimony is always unreliable. He treats 'Ephesians' and 'Laodiceans' as two separate texts. This makes absolutely certain that he is relying on a second hand report he doesn't understand.

Let's leave aside the strange statement - Principalem adversus Judaismum Epistolam nos quoque confitemur quae Galatas docet. Romans was placed first in the orthodox canons (for political reasons) perhaps as early as the end of the second century, the Marcionite canon might well have been recognized as agreeing with the original order of epistles in Catholic documents like the Muratorian canon.

The reason I hesitate to understand the Marcionite canon began with the Epistle to the Galatians is because there is so much evidence for a Corinthians first canon in Against Marcion. I don't know how to explain it. Here's one example. From Book Four:
To sum up: if it is agreed that that has the greater claim to truth which has the earlier priority, and that has the priority which has been so since the beginning, and that has been since the beginning which was from the apostles, there will be no less agreement that that was handed down by the apostles which is held sacred and inviolate in the churches the apostles founded. Let us consider what milk it was that Paul gave the Corinthians to drink,a by the line of what rule the Galatians were again made to walk straight,b what the Philippians, the Thessalonians, and the Ephesians are given to read, what words are spoken also by our near neighbours the Romans, to whom Peter and Paul left as legacy the gospel, sealed moreover with their own blood
.

I defy anyone looking at the context of this statement as to the order of the epistles to argue that someone thought that Corinthians should be first and Romans last. Someone had this canon, but whom? I think there is evidence in Against Marcion to suggest it might have been Marcion.
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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stephan happy huller wrote:
It's the only evidence we have regarding Marcion's order, but sure, let's set it aside.
No it is no such evidence. Principalum is always used by Tertullian to mean 'first in significance' not 'number one.' He speaks about the golden rule in this way for instance. He doesn't mean that it was the first commandment to come from God's finger or Moses's mouth but the greatest, most important. The same sense is used here.
Cool story, bro. You might be right even. But you're still majoring in the minors and locking onto details that I'm not emphasizing at all.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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So please explain how this means that Galatians came first in the Marcionite canon:

Principalem adversus Judaismum Epistolam nos quoque confitemur quae Galatas docet
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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stephan happy huller wrote:So please explain how this means that Galatians came first in the Marcionite canon:

Principalem adversus Judaismum Epistolam nos quoque confitemur quae Galatas docet
I don't care. Maybe you're right! If I say you're right, will you try to understand what I've been talking about for the last few pages?
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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Maybe I'm not being clear here. I hope I'm clear, but I get the feeling of being constantly less-than-completely-understood here because you flit about this, that, and the other, without ever coming to focus squarely on the main problem/contention I am suggesting. Maybe it's because I keep bringing up incidental things that I try to fit into the broad picture. Okay, let me just focus on the broad picture.

Marcionite collections of the letters of Paul in the 3rd/4th century had substantially the same contents as non-Marcionite collections of the same letters (whether you want to number them 7 or 10 or expanded 14). They differed text-critically because all collections of Paul differed.

MARCIONITE PAUL = CATHOLIC PAUL = PAUL IN THE EVIDENCE (3rd century, 4th century sources). The distinction is academic and false. The Marcionite collection the authors had were just part of the warp and woof of the broad scribal tradition of copying these Paulines. There were differences between them and the collection that Tertullian or Epiphanius preferred, but the differences are just variant manuscript readings, not a carefully cloistered virginal collection of Marcion's Pauline letters.

I'm not going to say I've proven this because, clearly, I haven't. It is something that we have to wrestle with, however. The opposite assumption is the basis of almost all scholarship regarding a Marcionite collection of Pauline letters, but it seems to me a rather retarded assumption.
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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It's like there's some kind of reality-bending warp field around what I just posted so that anything and everything else will be discussed.
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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I think the Marcionite epistles differed from the Catholic epistles as much as the Syriac Ignatian epistles did from the Greek epistles of Ignatius. Is that clear enough of an answer? I don't believe there were any personal references, names of individuals, places visited by Paul, AT ALL in the Marcionite canon. I think the letters were much, much shorter. My assumption would be that all seven of the letters could in one codex.
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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And how did the 2nd century Marcionite epistles differ from the "Marcionite epistles" in the hands of Tertullian and Epiphanius?
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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They never had the actual texts in their hands. Tertullian and Epiphanius were working from commentaries written in the second century. Like Against Hermogenes originally written by Theophilus and copied by Tertullian. And Against the Valentinians written by Irenaeus.
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Re: Does Galatians 4 imply a pre-70 AD perspective?

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Take the example of Against Theophilus allegedly written by Tertullian. You have to believe that Theophilus got up and moved from Antioch to Carthage to believe it is an original composition of Tertullian:
A considerable distance of time and place separates the notices by Theophilus and Tertullian. THEOPHILUS survived the accession of Commodus in 180, but probably not more than two years. Hence 180 would be our latest date for the teaching of Hermogenes, which may have been earlier. He probably had disciples at Antioch, and therefore must have taught at or near there, and any writing of his answered by Theophilus must have been written in Greek. Tertullian's tract against Hermogenes is assigned by Uhlhorn (Fundamenta Chron. Tert. p. 60) to a.d. 206 or 207. In it Hermogenes is spoken of as still living ("ad hodiernum homo in saeculo") and coupled with one Nigidius in the work on Prescription, c. 30, as among the heretics "who still walk perverting the ways of God." There are indications that the work to which Tertullian replies was in Latin, and every reason to think that Hermogenes (though probably, as his name indicates, of Greek descent) was then living in Carthage, for Tertullian assails his private character, entering into details in a way which would not be intelligible unless both were inhabitants of the same city. The same inference may be drawn from the frequency of Tertullian's references to Hermogenes in works of which his errors are not the subject (de Monog. 16; de Praescrip. 30, 33 adv. Valent. 16; de Animâ, 1, 11, 21, 22, 24); for apparently proximity gave this heretic an importance in his eyes greater than was otherwise warranted. Tertullian describes him as a turbulent man, who took loquacity for eloquence and impudence for firmness.
I think it is easier to believe that Tertullian just 'updated' an original treatise by Theophilus out of his own own imagination or 'spirit' (he was a Montanist after all).
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