Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

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Peter Kirby
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

Post by Peter Kirby »

It can't hurt to have some of the data before our eyes....

(A) Matthew start/end + Acts 1

Matthew - start
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, ...
Matthew - end
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Acts 1
1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
(B) Luke start/end + Acts 1

Luke - start
Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.
Luke - end
13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem, 14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19 And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” 25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther, 29 but they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them. 30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight. 32 They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?” 33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. And they found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, 34 saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” 35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.

44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and[c] forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

50 Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple blessing God.
Acts 1
1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Some Observations

(1) While it is not what the OP asks us to give our attention to (which focuses on "The question simply is - doesn't Acts make more sense being 'set up' by Matthew 28?"), it is plainly evident that the prefaces to Luke and Acts cohere with each other, both addressed to "Theophilus."

(2) Both Matthew and Luke end with an ascension story. Acts begins with an ascension story. No point awarded here to either.

(3) Matthew ends with the disciples in Galilee, while Luke ends with the disciples in Jerusalem. Acts begins with the disciples in Jerusalem. This clearly favors seeing Acts 1 as being 'set up' by Luke 24, not Matthew 28.

(4) Luke 24 has the specific injunction "stay in the city," while Acts has the specific injunction "not to depart from Jerusalem." Matthew 28 has no such feature.

(5) Luke 24 has the specific reference to the sending of 'promise of the father' (i.e., the spirit) in, "I am sending the promise of my Father upon you." Acts 1 has the specific reference, "to wait for the promise of the Father." Matthew 28 has no such specific reference.

(6) Matthew depicts an ascension story that has a sense of "finality." Acts depicts an ascension story that has a sense of "finality." Luke depicts an ascension story that has no sense of "finality." This once again clearly favors seeing Acts 1 as being 'set up' by Luke 24, not Matthew 28. Those passages once again:

Matthew 28
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Luke 24
... 49 "And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

50 Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple blessing God.
Acts 1
4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Of course this is not surprising, given the fact that the author of Acts had a part in giving 'Luke' its final shape, a fact borne out by statistical analysis of style.

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1568

Some of the questions remaining are...

How many New Testament compilations put Matthew last among the gospels anyway?
There was at least one recorded example mentioned in a quote above (Old Latin "k").

What about the ones that put John first? What's that all about?

Will Huller respond to this criticism with verbal abuse?

Will he claim to be misunderstood, and will he blame something other than the inadequacy of his own explanations?

I don't know. Maybe this comment will make him more aware of some of his tendencies here.
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

Post by Stephan Huller »

I don't know that this isn't a stupid question so how could I be belligerent about "stupid answers"? In response though:

1 I am not sure "Luke" wrote Acts or just edited a pre-existent text (just as Clement reports he did for Hebrews)
2 I am stuck with the idea that Matthew knows what is about to happen in Acts, more so than Luke. Are we forced then to admit that Acts 1 is a historical event?
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Stephan Huller wrote:I am not sure "Luke" wrote Acts or just edited a pre-existent text (just as Clement reports he did for Hebrews)
Is that not pretty much what Peter said?
Peter Kirby wrote:Of course this is not surprising, given the fact that the author of Acts had a part in giving 'Luke' its final shape, a fact borne out by statistical analysis of style.
Stephan Huller wrote:I am stuck with the idea that Matthew knows what is about to happen in Acts, more so than Luke. Are we forced then to admit that Acts 1 is a historical event?
Even if you are right about Matthew (and I do not see how you can be), the leap from that to being forced to admit that Acts 1 is historical feels a bit like a baseball team winning its first game of the season and thereby forcing us to concede that they will also win the World Series.

Ben.
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

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Stephan Huller wrote: 1 I am not sure "Luke" wrote Acts or just edited a pre-existent text (just as Clement reports he did for Hebrews)
Which Clement?
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

Post by Stephan Huller »

I had to admit it at 4 am in the morning when I was writing so I could go back to sleep. My son had me up getting a glass of water
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote:Which Clement?
The Roman epistle of Clement to the Corinthians has some overlaps with the epistle to the Hebrews, but nowhere explicitly cites it. Doubtless, therefore, Stephan means Clement of Alexandria, concerning whom Eusebius reports as follows in History of the Church 6.14.2:

Και την προς Εβραιους δε επιστολην Παυλου μεν ειναι φησιν, γεγραφθαι δε Εβραιοις Εβραικη φωνη, Λουκαν δε φιλοτιμως αυτην μεθερμηνευσαντα εκδουναι τοις Ελλησιν, οθεν τον αυτον χρωτα ευρισκεσθαι κατα την ερμηνειαν ταυτης τε της επιστολης και των πραξεων.

And [Clement] says that the epistle toward the Hebrews is also of Paul, but it was written to Hebrews in Hebrew, and Luke honorably translated it and published it for the Greeks, for which reason the same style is found, because of this translation, both in the epistle and in the Acts.

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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

Post by Secret Alias »

Just waking up and looking at the Greek you provided Ben. Do you think that ερμηνειαν = translation is a bit strong? Don't you think 'interpretation' might be the right rendering here. The idea is Luke 'honorably translated' the text in the first bit but then Clement still puts some distance between the original Hebrew and the Greek when he references ἑρμηνεία the second time around. He's translating but also interpreting. That's how Euthalius (5th century) read the Greek from memory.
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

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I say this of course because Epiphanius also references a Hebrew text of Acts which differed from the canonical text. Luke wasn't translating but 're-interpreting' his gospel material, Acts and Hebrews. The originals were different.
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

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I think that this must be the correct sense of Clement is supported by his student Origen's statement about his testimony - https://books.google.com/books?id=Q1wma ... ws&f=false
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Re: Might John and Matthew Have Switched Places in Order?

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As a result we see further evidence that wasting time 're-interpreting' and already re-interpreted text(s) is a waste of time if we think we are getting back into the mind of the original author (= Paul?). All we are likely getting is 'Luke' or some second century figure's 'spin' on what is 'proper' with respect to this highly significant epistle. It was changed to accord with the orthodoxy established by 'Luke' in a later period.
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