A Study in 1 Clement

[JoeWallack]

JW:
In general Clement evidences a funnier, earlier Christianity that was based primarily on supposed deductions and not supposed historical witness. Therefore, I think you are backwards above regarding likely original Clement and original evidence for the resurrection. I have faith that the deductive arguments for the supposed resurrection such as the phoenix are original and the historical arguments such as disciple witness are forgeries. I think original Clement was early enough that orthodox Christianity still understood, based on original Paul, that Paul's use of "crucified" was figurative.

See Was Paul the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified?


Joseph

The New Porphyry

[rakovsky]

Should one translate 1 Clement 20:8 as if Clement were talking about the worlds "beyond" the Atlantic Ocean, (eg. the Americas) or just the worlds "among" the Atlantic Ocean (eg. the British Isles, the Canaries, the Azores, and Iceland)?:

ὠκεανὸς ἀπέραντος ἀνθρώποις καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτὸν κόσμοι ταῖς αὐταῖς ταγαῖς του δεσπότου διευθύνονται.

What is the best translation of this sentence?

Any Greek speakers here?

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Should one translate 1 Clement 20:8 as if Clement were talking about the worlds "beyond" the Atlantic Ocean, (eg. the Americas) or just the worlds "among" the Atlantic Ocean (eg. the British Isles, the Canaries, the Azores, and Iceland)?:

ὠκεανὸς ἀπέραντος ἀνθρώποις καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτὸν κόσμοι ταῖς αὐταῖς ταγαῖς του δεσπότου διευθύνονται.

What is the best translation of this sentence?

Any Greek speakers here?

μετά - Thayer's Greek Lexicon

II. with the accusative (Winer's Grammar, § 49, f.);
...
a. in order of place; after, behind, (so from Homer down); once in the N. T. (Winer's Grammar, as above): Hebrews 9:3 (Judith 2:4).

μετά - LSJ

C. WITH ACCUS.,
...
II. of sequence or succession,
1. of Place, after, behind, λαοὶ ἕπονθ᾽, ὡς εἴ τε μ. κτίλον ἕσπετο μῆλα like sheep after the bell-wether, Il.13.492, cf. Od.6.260, 21.190, h.Ven.69; “ἔσχατοι μ. Κύνητας οἰκέουσι” Hdt.4.49; μ. τὴν θάλασσαν beyond, on the far side of the sea, Theo Sm.p.122 H.

"literally"

ὠκεανὸς ... καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτὸν κόσμοι
ocean ... and the - behind it - worlds

[rakovsky]

Should one translate 1 Clement 20:8 as if Clement were talking about the worlds "beyond" the Atlantic Ocean, (eg. the Americas) or just the worlds "among" the Atlantic Ocean (eg. the British Isles, the Canaries, the Azores, and Iceland)?:

ὠκεανὸς ἀπέραντος ἀνθρώποις καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτὸν κόσμοι ταῖς αὐταῖς ταγαῖς του δεσπότου διευθύνονται.

What is the best translation of this sentence?

Any Greek speakers here?

μετά - Thayer's Greek Lexicon

II. with the accusative (Winer's Grammar, § 49, f.);
...
a. in order of place; after, behind, (so from Homer down); once in the N. T. (Winer's Grammar, as above): Hebrews 9:3 (Judith 2:4).

μετά - LSJ

C. WITH ACCUS.,
...
II. of sequence or succession,
1. of Place, after, behind, λαοὶ ἕπονθ᾽, ὡς εἴ τε μ. κτίλον ἕσπετο μῆλα like sheep after the bell-wether, Il.13.492, cf. Od.6.260, 21.190, h.Ven.69; “ἔσχατοι μ. Κύνητας οἰκέουσι” Hdt.4.49; μ. τὴν θάλασσαν beyond, on the far side of the sea, Theo Sm.p.122 H.

"literally"

ὠκεανὸς ... καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτὸν κόσμοι
ocean ... and the - behind it - worlds

Good job, Kunigunde.
How would you translate the whole sentence?

ὠκεανὸς ἀπέραντος ἀνθρώποις καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτὸν κόσμοι ταῖς αὐταῖς ταγαῖς του δεσπότου διευθύνονται.

The ocean, _____ to humans, and the worlds beyond it are constantly _________ by the same _______ of the Lord.
?

[DCHindley]

1 Clement 20:8 The ocean, impassible to man, and the worlds beyond it, are regulated by the same enactments of the Lord.

ὠκεανὸς	noun sg masc nom	Oceanus, a great river which compases the earths' disc and flows around it entirely, the great outward sea opposed to the inward sea = Mediterranean
ἀπέραντος	adj sg masc nom	boundless, infinite
ἀνθρώποις	noun pl masc dat	to men
καὶ	coordinating conjunction	and, even, also
οἱ	article pl masc voc proclitic indeclform,	the ones
μετ’	prep indeclform	after/behind (with accusative)
αὐτὸν	adj sg masc acc	himself
κόσμοι	noun masc, nom./voc. pl	order, ornament/decoration, ruler/regulator, world-order/universe
ταῖς	article pl fem dat indeclform	the following
αὐταῖς	adj pl fem dat	to those
ταγαῖς	fem dat pl	lines of battle
του	definite article genitive masculine singular	the (one)
δεσπότου	noun sg masc gen	master, lord
διευθύνονται	verb indicative present passive 3rd person plural of διευθύνω	to set right

I think this is supposed to mean that the great world encircling river or sea (not the Mediterranean sea) and any that are beyond it, follows the organization imposed upon it by its ruler (despot). This, to a Jew like Philo, would be the Judean God as creator, and I think that the author of 1 Clement is implying that this despot is the same one worshipped by Judeans & Christians.

So, the thing beyond the Oceanic river that encircled the world known to the people of that day, was probably another river, and this could imply that there were possibly other worlds they did not know about that separated the two encircling rivers.

However, I vaguely recall reading that the various cosmological arrangements may have included one where there were actually two powerful rivers that circled around the inhabited earth, each circling in different directions (clockwise/counterclockwise). Sea currents in the Atlantic do sometimes do this (as you pass along, the current seems to go one way and then suddenly goes the opposite direction). Study of Sea currents is a specialty for certain climate scientists today, but ancient sailors would know of them and the landlubbers would make of their tales about them as best they could.

DCH

[rakovsky]

Good analysis.

[rakovsky]

It sounds to me like this is closest:
"The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord."

Also of interest: Citing 1 Clement, Origen (2nd-3rd c.) believes that there are people on the other side of the ocean, whom he calls the Antichthones:

Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, makes mention of those whom the Greeks called ᾿Αντίχθονες, and other parts of the earth, to which no one of our people can approach, nor can any one of those who are there cross over to us, which he also termed worlds, saying,
"The ocean is impassable to men; and those are worlds which are on the other side of it, which are governed by these same arrangements of the ruling God."

De Principii, 2.3.6

The "ordinances of God" I suppose Origen was applying to the idea that God has moral laws that judge humanity, and took the view that these same laws governed the opposite side of the world. Hence, this suggests that there are people on the opposite side of the world governed by those laws.

For example, in the next few verses, 1 Clement talked about God's laws applying to the world's creatures:

1 Clem 20:10-11
The winds in their several quarters at their proper season fulfill their ministry without disturbance; and the ever flowing fountains, created for enjoyment and health, without fail give their breasts which sustain the life for men. Yea, the smallest of living things come together in concord and peace.

All these things the great Creator and Master of the universe ordered to be in peace and concord, doing good unto all things

But for me, I don't find Clement being so specific in implication as to whether there are Antichthones, only that God's laws govern everything all over all the earth.

ANTIPODES, or ANTICHTHONES, in Geography, a relative Term, understood of such Inhabitants of the Earth as live diametrically opposite to one another.
...
The Antipodes have the same degree of Heat and Cold; the same length of Night, and Day; but at contrary times: It being Midnight with one when it is Noon with the other; and the longest Day with one, when shortest with the other. Plato is said to have first started the Notion of Antipodes; and likewise to have given them the Name: As he conceiv’d the Earth to be of a spherical Figure, it was easy for him to infer that there must be Antipodes.

It may be added, that the Christian Fathers [Lactantius and Augustine] were not the only Persons who disputed the Truth of Antipodes. Lucretius had done it before them at the end of his first Book, v. 10, 63, &c. See also Plutarch, lib. de Facie in Orbe Lunae; and Pliny

https://www.she-philosopher.com/library ... s_Pt2.html