I'm very surprised that you don't see precisely these points I underline, because they are exactly the same points (I don't refer to the points 11,12 & 13) that Adamczewski thinks that Mark ''saw'' in Galatians in order to have the right inspiration to create the paulinized Jesus of the first half of his Gospel, who was baptized, went into the wilderness and then goes to Galilee preaching the kingdom.Positives on your list that weren't on mine:
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but (-/+)
7. he is spirited away, and (-/+)
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country. (-/+)
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom. (-/+)
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast, (-/+)
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and (-/+)
13. And becomes king. (-/+)
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and (-/+)
Paul in Raglan Scale?
Re: Paul in Raglan Scale?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Re: Paul in Raglan Scale?
I explain better why I select these points, too:
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
The reason: Gal 1:13-14, Gal 1:16-17
What attempted to ''kill'' spiritually - on 'birth' - Paul is his Jewish education and the risk that, immediately after his conversion, he could go to Jerusalem where he could find harmful influence by apostles before him who were somehow corrupt (because they have corrupted the true gospel).
In Mark this is reflected by Jesus leaving Nazareth (allusion to ultra-Jewish past of Paul) in order to scrupolously receive the baptism from John, where he is separated via Spirit from John.
7. he is spirited away, and
The reason: Gal 1:16-17, Gal 1:18, Gal 2:1
The Spirit departs Paul as much as possible from those who can defile him spiritually, and therefore led him among Pagans, far distant from Jerusalem.
Note that in Mark this is reflected by the fact that the Spirit moved Jesus into the desert and then, instead of going in Judaea, Jesus comes in Galilee of the Gentiles (Capernaum being Damascus).
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
the reason: Gal 1:16-17, Gal 1:18, Gal 2:1
to the extent that Paul is in the gentile world far away from Jerusalem, he is 'safe' spiritually from any deadly contamination with the the Judaizers of Jerusalem.
The alienation/separation from his original country can also be seen, in marcionite terms, as adoption by a Alien God (I am who says this).
As above, this is reflected in Jesus preaching in Galilee of Gentiles and not in Judaea.
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
the reason: Gal 1:18-24, Gal 2:1-10)
When Paul is spiritually 'read', he goes to Jerusalem. I remember that in Marcionite Galatians verses 18-24 are not attested while verse 2:1 lacks ''again''. In any case, when Paul goes to Jerusalem, He is keen to stress his independence(as a King of his own right) and his do not have rivals to own gospel.
This is reflected in Mark by the diatribes, in Judaea and Jerusalem, between a paulinized Jesus and scribes/pharisees (representatives of Pillars) + Jesus'family. They will betray him, just like Paul will be betrayed by Peter.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
The reason: Gal 1:13-14, Gal 1:16-17
What attempted to ''kill'' spiritually - on 'birth' - Paul is his Jewish education and the risk that, immediately after his conversion, he could go to Jerusalem where he could find harmful influence by apostles before him who were somehow corrupt (because they have corrupted the true gospel).
In Mark this is reflected by Jesus leaving Nazareth (allusion to ultra-Jewish past of Paul) in order to scrupolously receive the baptism from John, where he is separated via Spirit from John.
7. he is spirited away, and
The reason: Gal 1:16-17, Gal 1:18, Gal 2:1
The Spirit departs Paul as much as possible from those who can defile him spiritually, and therefore led him among Pagans, far distant from Jerusalem.
Note that in Mark this is reflected by the fact that the Spirit moved Jesus into the desert and then, instead of going in Judaea, Jesus comes in Galilee of the Gentiles (Capernaum being Damascus).
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
the reason: Gal 1:16-17, Gal 1:18, Gal 2:1
to the extent that Paul is in the gentile world far away from Jerusalem, he is 'safe' spiritually from any deadly contamination with the the Judaizers of Jerusalem.
The alienation/separation from his original country can also be seen, in marcionite terms, as adoption by a Alien God (I am who says this).
As above, this is reflected in Jesus preaching in Galilee of Gentiles and not in Judaea.
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
the reason: Gal 1:18-24, Gal 2:1-10)
When Paul is spiritually 'read', he goes to Jerusalem. I remember that in Marcionite Galatians verses 18-24 are not attested while verse 2:1 lacks ''again''. In any case, when Paul goes to Jerusalem, He is keen to stress his independence(as a King of his own right) and his do not have rivals to own gospel.
This is reflected in Mark by the diatribes, in Judaea and Jerusalem, between a paulinized Jesus and scribes/pharisees (representatives of Pillars) + Jesus'family. They will betray him, just like Paul will be betrayed by Peter.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
- Peter Kirby
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Re: Paul in Raglan Scale?
... Oh, Adamczewski? Why didn't you say so? Well, in that case...Giuseppe wrote:I'm very surprised that you don't see precisely these points I underline, because they are exactly the same points (I don't refer to the points 11,12 & 13) that Adamczewski thinks that Mark ''saw'' in Galatians in order to have the right inspiration to create the paulinized Jesus of the first half of his Gospel, who was baptized, went into the wilderness and then goes to Galilee preaching the kingdom.Positives on your list that weren't on mine:
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but (-/+)
7. he is spirited away, and (-/+)
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country. (-/+)
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom. (-/+)
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast, (-/+)
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and (-/+)
13. And becomes king. (-/+)
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and (-/+)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Re: Paul in Raglan Scale?
I asked Richard about this topic, mixing my arguments with these of Peter, and the answer is cruel :
to my partial excuse, I point out that the specific criticism
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arc ... nt-1057085This is 99% pure crank.
to my partial excuse, I point out that the specific criticism
should be directed to its real author of that wrong things, Peter Kirby (see above). I joke, obviously.It’s also a typical failure to understand how to apply the Rank-Raglan criteria (“mysterious death” does not mean we lack sources about how someone died; tombs invented centuries later can’t apply to when a person was invented;
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
- Peter Kirby
- Site Admin
- Posts: 8020
- Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
- Location: Santa Clara
- Contact:
Re: Paul in Raglan Scale?
I should perhaps clarify that I was already being more generous than reason would allow with my list (and also that I'm not big on Rank-Raglan in general).
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Re: Paul in Raglan Scale?
Peter, can I ask you what do you think it's more probable about Paul and epistles of Paul?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
- Peter Kirby
- Site Admin
- Posts: 8020
- Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
- Location: Santa Clara
- Contact:
Re: Paul in Raglan Scale?
I am still studying that problem.Giuseppe wrote:Peter, can I ask you what do you think it's more probable about Paul and epistles of Paul?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown