Paul in Raglan Scale?

[Giuseppe]

And now something of new. No secure at 100%.

In bold I would put the mythological aspects of Paul in Raglan scale.

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.


total 12/22.

I know already your objections about the vagueness of selected points in their corrispondent presumed evidence. But any point can be explained simply ''reading'' them in Galatians, for example. I don't know if my reading is forced but I attempt and exhort you to do it, too, at risk of doing fallacies of possibiliter.

This raises a interesting question. The Raglan scale can be used only when there are no ambiguity in interpretation ?

I explain why I select the point 6 for Paul, for example.

6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and

The reason: Paul would have been a Jew like the others, a person away from God like the others (in this sense ''dead'' or ''killed'' by education or false worship), but something happens at his birth that separates him from all the others and miraculously makes him 'special'.

[Giuseppe]

7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.

The reason: Paul doesn't go to Jerusalem, but he goes to Arabia and Damascus and in this sense he is ''spirited away'' and 'protected' by evil influence. His 'foster-parent' is the same God that adopted him and revealed in him his Son. I remember that in marcionite theology the True God 'adopts' simply humanity freed from Demiurg.

[Giuseppe]

9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.

nothing is known about Paul's childhood (note I'm basing only on epistles, not on Acts).
The ''return to his future Kingdom'' is implicit in the visit of Paul ''again'' to Jerusalem. This would be the exact moment when Paul is coming out from shadow that until that moment hid him from public notoriety.

[Giuseppe]

11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.

So 2 Corinthians 11:24-26:

Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;…

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus?

1 Cor 15:32

Paul gladiator? Paull that fights with beasts && survived alive? Improbable.

Paul 'marries' Christ that is the Church. Paul becomes 'King' because he goes to the Third Heaven.

[Giuseppe]

14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and

Paul says that his Gospel is the Unique Gospel. Rival gospels have no right before his Gospel.
Paul prescribes new laws as new Moses (see Brodie on this).

But Galatians attests that the pauline influence is under attack. Paul is losing followers because judaizers, ''some came from James'', etc.

[Giuseppe]

Note that Adamczewki, in a book on Gospel of Mark that I have read, says basically that Mark has done just this same operation that I'm doing. ''Reading'' the life of Jesus (that remember is already reflected in Raglan Scale via Carrier 2014) in life and predication of Paul, therefore confirming that the operation I'm doing is not banal a priori.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gospel-Mark-H ... 3631647158


And now, I wait with patience the scomunica from Peter.

[Giuseppe]

You should know that a Catholic historicist scholar, Adamczewski, has written a commentary on Gospel of Mark where he says that 'Mark' has pratically invented his gospel Jesus ex novo ''reading'' his life and actions in life and predication of Paul (even if a HJ existed, as Adamczewski, catholic priest, believes by definition).


1) Assume for a moment that this catholic priest is right (in any case, he is neither the first nor the last to argue on sound pauline influence on Mark).

2) but Carrier gives the proof that Jesus is a Rank-Raglan hero.

3) therefore, if the life of Jesus is 'read' in Paul (in virtue of point 1), then Paul is a Rank-Raglan hero, too.

Contra Carrier arguing for Paul not being a Rank-Raglan hero!

[Peter Kirby]

I deliberately decided to hold off on reading your comments first, in order to read the list itself and give an independent reading.

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin; [-]
2. His father is a king, and [-]
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but [-]
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and [+]
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god. [+]
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but [-]
7. he is spirited away, and [-]
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country. [-]
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but [+]
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom. [-]
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast, [-]
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and [-]
13. And becomes king. [-]
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and [-]
15. Prescribes laws, but [+]
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and [+]
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which [+]
18. He meets with a mysterious death, [+]
19. Often at the top of a hill, [-]
20. His children, if any do not succeed him. [-]
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless [-]
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres. [+]

I get 8 of 22, as follows:

4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and [+] (Gal 1:15, 1 Cor 15:8)
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god. [+] (Acts 14:12, 1 Cor 1:12)
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but [+] (Acts 13:9, Acts 22:3, etc.)
15. Prescribes laws, but [+] (Acts 15:2, Romans 3:31, etc.)
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and [+] (Acts 21:27, 2 Timothy 4:16, etc.)
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which [+] (Acts 22:18, Philippians 1:13, Philippians 4:22, Colossians 4:3, etc.)
18. He meets with a mysterious death, [+] (Acts 28:30-31, 1 Clement 5:5, Philippians 1:23, 2 Timothy 4:7, etc.)
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres. [+] (Basilica of St. Paul's Outside-the-Walls, etc.)

[Peter Kirby]

Common negatives between my list and yours:

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin; (-)
2. His father is a king, and (-)
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but (-)
19. Often at the top of a hill, (-)
20. His children, if any do not succeed him. (-)
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless (-)

Common positives between my list and yours:

4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and (+)
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but (+)
15. Prescribes laws, but (+)
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and (+)

Positives on my list that weren't on yours:

5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god. (+/-)
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which (+/-)
18. He meets with a mysterious death, (+/-)
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres. (+/-)

Positives on your list that weren't on mine:

6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but (-/+)
7. he is spirited away, and (-/+)
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country. (-/+)
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom. (-/+)
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast, (-/+)
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and (-/+)
13. And becomes king. (-/+)
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and (-/+)

If someone were to accept both the positives on your list and also those on mine, they'd arrive at 16 of 22.

I'm not exactly sure whether this should indict:

(a) the historicity of Paul
(b) the subjectivity involved in loosely interpreting the list of Rank-Raglan criteria in order to find vague matches

But (b) is certainly in evidence, from the wide disagreement between your list and mine (10 agreements, 12 disagreements).

Part of this may be attributed to your statement: "I'm basing only on epistles, not on Acts." But is this itself not, perhaps, a subjective judgment call?

[Peter Kirby]

Some posts split here:

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1621