Rending of the veil

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Kris
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Rending of the veil

Post by Kris »

Can anybody give me some good insight regarding of the rending of the veil? Did this really happen--- or is it only reflected in the gospel stories? Is it unprovable because the gospel writers wrote about this incident after the destruction of the temple? Is the whole thing allegorical? I have heard some Christian try to tie it to the supposed earthquake mentioned in Matthew. I don't think the Jews or any other contemporary during Jesus' time mentioning this occurrence. Can anybody give me some insight?
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toejam
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by toejam »

There's always some *possible* rationalistic answer - e.g. that there really was a coincidental earthquake that managed to tear the temple veil at the same time Jesus was being crucified. But on the other hand, I think the incident makes better sense as an allegory: Jesus' sacrifice, being a perfect sacrifice, means the end of the animal sacrificial system and Yahweh can now 'leave the building' (for lack of a better phrase). I don't recall Josephus or any other source mentioning it and as far as I can see the gospels are likely post-70CE. So I think the allegorical/symbolic reading makes the best sense. Or it's just a lie, written to deceive. Either way, the "it's probably not true" option seems the way to go.
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Ulan
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by Ulan »

If you accept that gMark comes first, the rending of the veil near the end of the gospel mirrors the rending of heaven at the beginning (the same word for "rending" is used), when the spirit of God transitions from heaven to earth (Jesus). Which means it signifies the transition of God. In this case, God leaves the temple. There's no need to assume any literal meaning.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by andrewcriddle »

It may be historical, but if it is a historical event then the source of Mark's information is unclear.

It would not have been witnessed by the ordinary people but only by the priests in the Temple.

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DCHindley
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by DCHindley »

While, as a historical source, the gospel of Mark could be relating a historical event, it is not corroborated in non-Christian literature so the matter has to be considered conjectural.

Personally, I think the rending of the veil before the holy of holies was a metaphor for how Christ's sacrifice was making the divine places visible and "removing the veil" (the Law of Judaism) that obscured the divine precincts.

DCH
TedM
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by TedM »

Read at your own risk, I found this quote:

Writes Alfred Edersheim in The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah:

“And now a shudder ran through Nature, as its Sun had set. We dare not do more than follow the rapid outlines of the Evangelistic narrative. As the first token, it records the rending of the Temple-Veil in two from the top downward to the bottom; as the second, the quaking of the earth, the rending of the rocks and the opening of the graves.., while the rending of the Veil is recorded first, as being the most significant token to Israel, it may have been connected with the earthquake, although this alone might scarcely account for the tearing of so heavy a Veil from the top to the bottom. Even the latter circumstance has its significance. That some great catastrophe, betokening the impending destruction of the Temple, had occurred in the Sanctuary about this very time, is confirmed by not less than four mutually independent testimonies: those of Tacitus, of Josephus, of the Talmud, and of earliest Christian tradition. The most important of these are, of course, the Talmud and Josephus. The latter speaks of the mysterious extinction of the middle and chief light in the Golden Candlestick, forty years before the destruction of the Temple; and both he and the Talmud refer to a supernatural opening by themselves of the great Temple-gates that had been previously closed, which was regarded as a portent of the coming destruction of the Temple” (p.610).

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/m ... vents.html
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by Peter Kirby »

Josephus, Wars of the Jews 6.5.3 (none of this is placed so long ago as AD 30)
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
Tacitus, Histories 5.13 (none of this is placed so long ago as AD 30)
Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire. These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth. I have heard that the total number of the besieged, of every age and both sexes, amounted to six hundred thousand. All who were able bore arms, and a number, more than proportionate to the population, had the courage to do so. Men and women showed equal resolution, and life seemed more terrible than death, if they were to be forced to leave their country. Such was this city and nation; and Titus Caesar, seeing that the position forbad an assault or any of the more rapid operations of war, determined to proceed by earthworks and covered approaches. The legions had their respective duties assigned to them, and there was a cessation from fighting, till all the inventions, used in ancient warfare, or devised by modern ingenuity for the reduction of cities, were constructed.
Further quotes from:
http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/ ... 6_JETS.pdf

Lives of the Prophets
Habakkuk 12:10-13 (referred to as "only vaguely possible Christian interpolations ... in Habakkuk, vss. 11-14" by James Charlesworth).
He gave a portent to those in Judea, that they would see a light in the Temple
and so perceive the glory of the Temple. And concerning the end of the Temple
he predicted, “By a western nation it will happen.” “At that time,” he said, “the
curtain of the Dabeir [that is, the temple curtain separating the Holy from the
Holy of Holies] will be torn into pieces, and the capitals of the two pillars will
be taken away, and no one will know where they are; and they will be carried
away by angels into the wilderness, where the tent of witness was set up in the
beginning. And by means of them the Lord will be recognized at the end, for
they will illuminate those who are being pursued by the serpent in darkness as
from the beginning.”
Testament of Benjamin 9:2–3 ("a widely recognized example of later Christian editing" according to the JETS article).
But in your allotted place will be the temple of God, and the latter temple will
exceed the former in glory. The twelve tribes shall be gathered there and all
the nations, until such time as the Most High shall send forth his salvation
through the ministration of the unique prophet. He shall enter the first temple,
and there the Lord will be abused and will be raised up on wood. And the temple
curtain will be torn
, and the spirit of God will move on to all the nations as a
fire is poured out. And he shall ascend from Hades and shall pass on from earth
to heaven. I understand how humble he will be on earth, and how splendid in
heaven.
Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Yoma 6:3
It has been taught: Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the western
light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord
always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by
night and get up in the morning and find them wide open. Said [to the Temple]
Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai, “O Temple, why do you frighten us? We know that
you will end up destroyed. For it has been said, ‘Open your doors, O Lebanon,
that the fire may devour your cedars!’ ” (Zech 11:1).17
Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Yoma 4:1
Our rabbis have taught on Tannaite authority: Forty years before the destruction
of the sanctuary, the lot did not come up in the right hand, and the thread
of crimson never turned white, and the westernmost light never shone, and the
doors of the courtyard would open by themselves.32
Our rabbis have taught on Tannaite authority: In the year in which Simeon the
Righteous died, he said to them that in that year he would die. They said to
him, “How do you know?” He said to them, “Every Day of Atonement an old man
dressed in white and cloaked in white appears to me, who enters with me and
goes forth with me [to and from the Holy of Holies], while this year an old man
appeared to me dressed in black and cloaked in black, who went in with me
but did not come out with me.” After the festival of Tabernacles, he fell ill for
seven days, and then he died. His brothers the priests refused to pronounce the
divine name when bestowing the priestly benediction.33
Midrash Rabbah Leviticus 21:12
In the year wherein Simeon the Righteous was to die he told his friends that
he would die that year. Said they to him: “How do you know?” He answered
them: “Every year an old man dressed in white and enveloped in white came
in with me and went out with me, but this year he came in with me but did not
go out with me.” R. Abbahu said: And who shall say that it was a man? Surely,
it was the Holy One, blessed be He, in His own glory that came in with him
and went out with him!35
Tosefta Sotah 13:6
Simeon the Righteous heard a word from the House of the Holy of Holies: “Annulled
is the decree which the enemy planned to bring against the sanctuary,
and Gasqelges [Caligula] has been killed, and his decrees have been annulled.”
And he heard [all this] in the Aramaic language.38
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by Peter Kirby »

These relationships are evident:

Both Josephus and Tacitus depend, at minimum, on similar traditions or sources regarding the Jewish war. (Doors opened, etc.)

The Gospel narratives, Testament of Benjamin 9:2–3, and seemingly Habakkuk 12:10-13 are dependent on each other. (The temple veil torn, etc.)

The Talmudic stories appear to be dependent, at minimum, on the same traditions regarding the Jewish war. (Doors opened, etc.)

Thus there seems to be one distinct tradition ("the Christian cycle") where a veil is torn and another distinct tradition ("the Jewish cycle" including Tacitus) where doors open of themselves. In each case we can assume that all of this was written down after the Jewish war, which led to the search for portents.

Now it might be asked whether the later part of the Jewish cycle were influenced by the Christian. And, at first blush, it seems more than possible, due to the reference to "40 years" before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

But is that so?

Couldn't the "40 years" be a symbolic invention of the Talmudic tradition, independent of any reference to the Christians' Jesus? It would indeed seem a bit strange to assume that the Talmudic tradition would want to associate the portents of their Temple's destruction specifically with the heretics. It would seem more natural to assume that the reference was made without any special regard for Christianity (and perhaps without even thinking about Jesus' supposed date of death or regarding it as the same date).

And "40 years" does seem to be a symbolic kind of number. Both 40 days and 40 years seem to have a sense of 'completeness' to them. So it seems that the further development in the "Jewish cycle," and the backdating by 40 years, is just additional legendary development independent of Christians and independent of Christian traditions.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... the-number

(One question might then be: should we wonder about the symbolic value of Jesus dying 40 years before the destruction of the Temple? Shouldn't we?)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:Couldn't the "40 years" be a symbolic invention of the Talmudic tradition, independent of any reference to the Christians' Jesus? It would indeed seem a bit strange to assume that the Talmudic tradition would want to associate the portents of their Temple's destruction specifically with the heretics. It would seem more natural to assume that the reference was made without any special regard for Christianity (and perhaps without even thinking about Jesus' supposed date of death or regarding it as the same date).

And "40 years" does seem to be a symbolic kind of number. Both 40 days and 40 years seem to have a sense of 'completeness' to them. So it seems that the further development in the "Jewish cycle," and the backdating by 40 years, is just additional legendary development independent of Christians and independent of Christian traditions.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... the-number

(One question might then be: should we wonder about the symbolic value of Jesus dying 40 years before the destruction of the Temple? Shouldn't we?)
I definitely think we should. For it gets more specific than just a matter of 40 being a nice magical number. Every Jew ever born since the exodus from Egypt would know about how long it ought to take for a generation of adults to die off. In Numbers 14.22-32 God swears that no one who left Egypt (from 20 and up) will enter the promised land, except Caleb and Joshua. Then in 14.33-35 we learn how long it will take for (most of) this present generation to pass away: 40 years.

And Jesus said: Amen, I say to you that this generation shall not pass away until all these things should happen.

Ben.
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Clive
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Re: Rending of the veil

Post by Clive »

Whoa there! Are we looking at a process where, because of the huge implications of the destruction of the temple, vague ideas of an angelic man become formalised and triangulated back 40 years?
WE BELIEVE in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate
http://anglicansonline.org/basics/nicene.html
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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