What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This Title

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

Post by Secret Alias »

If you start with the fact that Christians seem 'mistake' Christos for Chrestos merely because they sound the same it might well be possible that there were other apparently 'dumb' linguistic arguments. For instance look at charis in the heretical systems:
his magician, may also flow into them. Again, handing mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence. When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated,) and pouting from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: "May that Charis who is before all things, and who transcends all knowledge and speech, fill thine inner man, and multiply in thee her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in thee as in good soil." Repeating certain other like words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many, and drawn them away after him.

It appears probable enough that this man possesses a demon as his familiar spirit, by means of whom he seems able to prophesy, and also enables as many as he counts worthy to be partakers of his Charis themselves to prophesy. He devotes himself especially to women, and those such as are well-bred, and elegantly attired, and of great wealth, whom he frequently seeks to draw after him, by addressing them in such seductive words as these: "I am eager to make thee a partaker of my Charis, since the Father of all doth continually behold thy angel before His face. Now the place of thy angel is among us: it behoves us to become one. Receive first from me and by me Charis. Adorn thyself as a bride who is expecting her bridegroom, that thou mayest be what I am, and I what thou art. Establish the germ of light in thy nuptial chamber. Receive from me a spouse, and become receptive of him, while thou art received by him. Behold Charis has descended upon thee; open thy mouth and prophesy." On the woman replying," I have never at any time prophesied, nor do I know how to prophesy;" then engaging, for the second time, in certain invocations, so as to astound his deluded victim, he says to her," Open thy mouth, speak whatsoever occurs to thee, and thou shalt prophesy." She then, vainly puffed up and elated by these words, and greatly excited in soul by the expectation that it is herself who is to prophesy, her heart beating violently [from emotion], reaches the requisite pitch of audacity, and idly as well as impudently utters some nonsense as it happens. to occur to her, such as might be expected from one heated by an empty spirit. (Referring to this, one superior to me has observed, that the soul is both audacious and impudent when heated with empty air.) Henceforth she reckons herself a prophetess, and expresses her thanks to Marcus for having imparted to her of his own Charis. She then makes the effort to reward him, not only by the gift of her possessions (in which way he has collected a very large fortune), but also by yielding up to him her person, desiring in every way to be united to him, that she may become altogether one with him.
The formula of Mark is very similar to 'Christ (Chrestos?) in me' in Pauline texts. But the explicit identification of Charis with Jesus is even stronger in the discussion of the broader gnostic belief where it is said:
But they declare that from the Light, which is Christ, and from Aphtharsia, four luminaries were sent forth to surround Autogenes; and again from Thelema and Zoe Aionios four other emissions took place, to wait upon these four luminaries; and these they name Charis (grace), Thelesis (will), Synesis (understanding), and Phronesis (prudence) Of these, Charis is connected with the great and first luminary: him they represent as Sorer (Saviour), and style Armogenes.
I think then that Chrestos was most probably chosen because of its closeness (in sound) to the concept of Charis and the Eucharist. The spirit that is in the bread and the water (or later wine) was 'grace' and that grace personified was Chrestos. How do I explain the bad etymology? Could it be that the Greek speaking Christians were translating another concept entirely from Hebrew into Greek? But what?

I have long noted that in one instance chrestos in the LXX translates yashar in the Hebrew scriptures and yashar (to be upright, strong) is understood in the Jewish tradition to be the root behind Israel. Hmmm ... http://www.kabbalah.info/eng/content/vi ... 80166&main http://www.kabbalah.info/eng/content/vi ... /4334&main https://books.google.com/books?id=UIvoS ... gy&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

Post by Secret Alias »

I think the underlying connection maybe with the early Christian idea of God 'giving grace' to the believers in Jesus and the verb yšr which shows up in Qumran texts (otherwise lost) which means "to give, to transmit" (goods, greetings) - viz. TAD A2.1 R.4 : וכעת מטתני כתנה זי אושרתי לי now then the shirt you sent me has reached me.

Jesus came from heaven to 'give' (vb. yšr) uprightness and equity (noun yšr). The Greek terminology is developed differently. The religious formula of 'thanking' the gods - in this case for the 'grace' given from Jesus - is decisive. But I wonder whether the same idea is at the root of both 'Israel' on the one hand and 'Chrestos' on the other.

Yashar is associated interestingly with Jacob wrestling with Israel comp. ܥܡ : to strive with Qumran, Syr. 4QEnGiantsc22.5 : ٠٠٠٠ ולא ]מ֗שכח אנה עמן לאשתר֗רה I am unable to strive with them. P Gn32:29 : ܕܐܫܼܬܪܪܬ ܥܡ ܡܠܐܟܐ you strove with an angel.

The ish gives Jacob (his) name 'Israel' which is an elaborate pun in Hebrew. Then the 'crooked' crafty one became 'Israel' the upright, straight divine one. The opening words almost of the gospel:

A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord;
make straight (יַשְּׁרוּ֙) in the desert
a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the crooked (הֶֽעָקֹב֙) shall become straight (לְמִישׁ֔וֹר),
the rugged places a plain.

For those who don't see it הֶֽעָקֹב֙ = the root of Jacob and לְמִישׁ֔וֹר = the root of Israel

The idea then that 'Chrestos' might have something to do with yashar isn't that incredible given the first words of the gospel and moreover almost the first miracle - let's not forget - the straightening of the man with the crooked hand.

So to repeat the basic idea is that Israel is derived from the root yashar by means of the name yeshurun (Deut 32:15). Jewish mystics have always interpreted Israel as meaning 'straight (= yashar) to God.' Like all Hebrew words yashar can be translated by many different Greek words depending on the context. While chrestos (= χρηστὸς) is used in Proverbs 2:21 LXX the more frequent terminology is εὐθύς, a term which appears especially frequently in the Gospel of Mark undoubtedly because yashar was so important to the early Christian identity associated with the text.

Let's notice the important of the word peshat in the story of the man with the withered hand:

And he beheld them with indignation, while it grieved him on account of the hardness of their hearts. And he said to the man, Stretch out (peshwt) thy hand. And he stretched (upeshat) and his hand was restored like the other.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

Post by Secret Alias »

FWIW I can't help but admit that the more I look the more I see Christianity being developed as some sort of mystical communism. That's what the Roman government was afraid of. Read Stromata Book 3 at the beginning.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

Post by Secret Alias »

The early use of charis (grace) in Irenaeus and elsewhere is roughly similar to the verb yšr, only that in old Aramaic yšr meant 'sent forth' and charis was taken to mean 'something received.' Not a perfect fit, but sometimes ancient translators didn't choose 'exact fits' for the terminology they used. There were other reasons for their word choices. Let's list all the times Irenaeus makes reference to 'grace' or charis (presumably):
In fine, as I (to gratify thy long-cherished desire for information regarding the tenets of these persons) have spared no pains, not only to make these doctrines known to thee, but also to furnish the means of showing their falsity; so shalt thou, according to the grace given to thee by the Lord, prove an earnest and efficient minister to others, that men may no longer be drawn away by the plausible system of these heretics, which I now proceed to describe. [Adv Haer 1.preface]

And committing many other abominations and impieties, they run us down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use, wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them.(6) They maintain, therefore, that in every way it is always necessary for them to practise the mystery of conjunction. And that they may persuade the thoughtless to believe this, they are in the habit of using these very words, "Whosoever being in this world does not so love a woman as to obtain possession of her, is not of the truth, nor shall attain to the truth. But whosoever being of(1) this world has intercourse with woman, shall not attain to the truth, because he has so acted under the power of concupiscence." On this account, they tell us that it is necessary for us whom they call animal men, and describe as being of the world, to practise continence and good works, that by this means we may attain at length to the intermediate habitation, but that to them who are called "the spiritual and perfect" such a course of conduct is not at all necessary. For it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma, but the seed sent forth thence in a feeble, immature state, and here brought to perfection. [ibid 1.7.4]

The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations(6) of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one,"(7) and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess"(8) to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses,"(9) and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [ibid 1.10.1]

Pretending(4) to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, he contrives to give them a purple and reddish colour, so that Charis,(5) who is one of those that are superior to all things, should be thought to drop her own blood into that cup through means of his invocation, and that thus those who are present should be led to rejoice to taste of that cup, in order that, by so doing, the Charis, who is set forth by this magician, may also flow into them. Again, handing mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence. When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated,) and pouting from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: "May that Chaffs who is before all things, and who transcends all knowledge and speech, fill thine inner man, and multiply in thee her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in thee as in good soil." Repeating certain other like words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many, and drawn them away after him.

3. It appears probable enough that this man possesses a demon as his familiar spirit, by means of whom he seems able to prophesy,(6) and also enables as many as he counts worthy to be partakers of his Charis themselves to prophesy. He devotes himself especially to women, and those such as are well-bred, and elegantly attired, and of great wealth, whom he frequently seeks to draw after him, by addressing them in such seductive words as these: "I am eager to make thee a partaker of my Charis, since the Father of all doth continually behold thy angel before His face. Now the place of thy angel is among us:(7) it behoves us to become one. Receive first from me and by me [the gift of] Chaffs. Adorn thyself as a bride who is expecting her bridegroom, that thou mayest be what I am, and I what thou art. Establish the germ of light in thy nuptial chamber. Receive from me a spouse, and become receptive of him, while thou art received by him. Behold Charis has descended upon thee; open thy mouth and prophesy." On the woman replying," I have never at any time prophesied, nor do I know how to prophesy;" then engaging, for the second time, in certain invocations, so as to astound his deluded victim, he says to her," Open thy mouth, speak whatsoever occurs to thee, and thou shalt prophesy." She then, vainly puffed up and elated by these words, and greatly excited in soul by the expectation that it is herself who is to prophesy, her heart beating violently [from emotion], reaches the requisite pitch of audacity, and idly as well as impudently utters some nonsense as it happens. to occur to her, such as might be expected from one heated by an empty spirit. (Referring to this, one superior to me has observed, that the soul is both audacious and impudent when heated with empty air.) Henceforth she reckons herself a prophetess, and expresses her thanks to Marcus for having imparted to her of his own Chaffs. She then makes the effort to reward him, not only by the gift of her possessions (in which way he has collected a very large fortune), but also by yielding up to him her person, desiring in every way to be united to him, that she may become altogether one with him.

4. But already some of the most faithful women, possessed of the fear of God, and not being deceived (whom, nevertheless, he did his best to seduce like the rest by bidding them prophesy), abhorring and execrating him, have withdrawn from such a vile company of revellers. This they have done, as being well aware that the gift of prophecy is not conferred on men by Marcus, the magician, but that only those to whom God sends His grace from above possess the divinely-bestowed power of prophesying; and then they speak where and when God pleases, and not when Marcus orders them to do so. For that which commands is greater and of higher authority than that which is commanded, inasmuch as the former rules, while the latter is in a state of subjection. If, then, Marcus, or any one else, does command,--as these are accustomed continually at their feasts to play at drawing lots, and [in accordance with the lot] to command one another to prophesy, giving forth as oracles what is in harmony with their own desires,--it will follow that he who commands is greater and of higher authority than the prophetic spirit, though he is but a man, which is impossible. But such spirits as are commanded by these men, and speak when they desire it, are earthly and weak, audacious and impudent, sent forth by Satan for the seduction and perdition of those who do not hold fast that well- compacted faith which they received at first through the Church. [ibid 1.13.2 - 4]

Moreover, the prophets uttered their predictions under the inspiration of those angels who formed the world; for which reason those who place their trust in him and Helena no longer regarded them, but, as being free, live as they please; for men are saved through his grace, and not on account of their own righteous actions. [ibid 1.23.3]

But they declare that from the Light, which is Christ, and from Aphtharsia, four luminaries were sent forth to surround Autogenes; and again from Thelema and Zoe Aionios four other emissions took place, to wait upon these four luminaries; and these they name Charis (grace), Thelesis (will), Synesis (understanding), and Phronesis (prudence) Of these, Chaffs is connected with the great and first luminary: him they represent as Sorer (Saviour), and style Armogenes. [ibid 1.29.2]

If, however, any one do not discover the cause of all those things which become objects of investigation, let him reflect that man is infinitely inferior to God; that he has received grace only in part, and is not yet equal or similar to his Maker; and, moreover, that he cannot have experience or form a conception of all things like God; but in the same proportion as he who was formed but to-day, and received the beginning of his creation, is inferior to Him who is uncreated, and who is always the same, in that proportion is he, as respects knowledge and the faculity of investigating the causes of all things, inferior to Him who made him. [ibid 2.25.3]

If, therefore, even with respect to creation, there are some things [the knowledge of] Which belongs only to God, and others which come with in the range of our own knowledge, what ground is there for complaint, if, in regard to those things which we investigate in the Scriptures (which are throughout spiritual), we are able by the grace of God to explain some of them, while we must leave others in the hands of God, and that not only in the present world, but also in that which is to come, so that God should for ever teach, and man should for ever learn the things taught him by God? [ibid 2.27.3]

Since, therefore, we know but in part, we ought to leave all sorts of [difficult] questions in the hands of Him who in some measure, [and that only,] bestows grace on us. That eternal fire, [for instance,] is prepared for sinners, both the Lord has plainly declared, and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate. And that God fore-knew that this would happen, the Scriptures do in like manner demonstrate, since He prepared eternal fire from the beginning for those who were [afterwards] to transgress [His commandments]; but the cause itself of the nature of such transgressors neither has any Scripture informed us, nor has an apostle told us, nor has the Lord taught us. It becomes us, therefore, to leave the knowledge of this matter to God, even as the Lord does of the day and hour [of judgment], and not to rush to such an extreme of danger, that we will leave nothing in the hands of God, even though we have received only a measure of grace. [ibid 2.27.7]

If, however, they maintain that the Lord, too, performed such works simply in appearance, we shall refer them to the prophetical writings, and prove from these both that all things were thus(4) predicted regarding Him, and did take place undoubtedly, and that He is the only Son of God. Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. [ibid 2.32.4]

And therefore, when the number [fixed upon] is completed, [that number] which He had predetermined in His own counsel, all those who have been enrolled for life [eternal] shah rise again, having their own bodies, and having also their own souls, and their own spirits, in which they had pleased God. Those, on the other hand, who are worthy of punishment, shall go away into it, they too having their own souls and their own bodies, in which they stood apart from the grace of God. [ibid 2.33.5]

For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance. The prophetic Spirit bears testimony to these opinions, when He declares, "For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created: He hath established them for ever, yea, forever and ever."(6) And again, He thus speaks respecting the salvation of man: "He asked life of Thee, and Thou gavest him length of days for ever and ever;"(7) indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. [2.34.3]

But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High."(6) To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father." [ibid 3.6.1]

And when he shall have divested his mind of such error, and of that blasphemy against God which it implies, he will of himself find reason to acknowledge that both the Mosaic law and the grace of the new covenant, as both fitted for the times [at which they were given], were bestowed by one and the same God for the benefit of the human race. [ibid 3.12.11]

They indeed, had they been cognizant of our future existence, and that we should use these proofs from the Scriptures, would themselves never have hesitated to burn their own Scriptures, which do declare that all other nations partake of [eternal] life, and show that they who boast themselves as being the house of Jacob and the people of Israel, am disinherited from the grace of God. [Adv Haer 3.21.1]

Since, therefore, the Scriptures have been interpreted with such fidelity, and by the grace of God, and since from these God has prepared and formed again our faith towards His Son, and has preserved to us the unadulterated Scriptures in Egypt, where the house of Jacob flourished [Adv Haer 3.21.3]

For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth. [Adv Haer 3.24.1]

But one and the same householder produced both covenants, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who spake with both Abraham and Moses, and who has restored us anew to liberty, and has multiplied that grace which is from Himself. He declares: "For in this place is One greater than the temple." But [the words] greater and less are not applied to those things which have nothing in common between themselves, and are of an opposite nature, and mutually repugnant; but are used in the case of those of the same substance, and which possess properties in common, but merely differ in number and size; such as water from water, and light from light, and grace from grace. [Adv Haer 4.9.1,2]

It is allowable for an earthly and temporal king, though he is a man, to grant to his subjects greater advantages at times: shall not this then be lawful for God, since He is the same, and is always willing to confer a greater grace upon the human race, and to honour continually with many gifts those who please Him [Adv Haer 4.9.3]

As, therefore, He has promised to give very much to those who do now bring forth fruit, according to the gift of His grace, but not according to the changeableness of "knowledge;" for the Lord remains the same, and the same Father is revealed; thus, therefore, has the one and the same Lord granted, by means of His advent, a greater gift of grace to those of a later period, than what He had granted to those under the Old Testament dispensation. For they indeed used to hear, by means of [His] servants, that the King would come, and they rejoiced to a certain extent, inasmuch as they hoped for His coming; but those who have beheld Him actually present, and have obtained liberty, and been made partakers of His gifts, do possess a greater amount of grace, and a higher degree of exultation, rejoicing because of the King's arrival [Adv Haer 4.11.3]

If, therefore, the self-same person is present who was announced by the prophets, our Lord Jesus Christ, and if His advent has brought in a fuller [measure of] grace and greater gifts to those who have received Him, it is plain that the Father also is Himself the same who was proclaimed by the prophets, and that the Son, on His coming, did not spread the knowledge of another Father, but of the same who was preached from the beginning; from whom also He has brought down liberty to those who, in a lawful manner, and with a willing mind, and with all the heart, do Him service [Adv Haer 4.11.4]

For He did not set us free for this purpose, that we should depart from Him (no one, indeed, while placed out of reach of the Lord's benefits, has power to procure for himself the means of salvation), but that the more we receive His grace, the more we should love Him. Now the more we have loved Him, the more glory shall we receive from Him, when we are continually in the presence of the Father. [Adv Haer 4.13.3]

And for this reason did the Word become the dispenser of the paternal grace for the benefit of men, for whom He made such great dispensations, revealing God indeed to men, but presenting man to God, and preserving at the same time the invisibility of the Father, lest man should at any time become a despiser of God, and that he should always possess something towards which he might advance [Adv Haer 4.20.7]

It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and [declaring] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him.(5) Now all those believed in Him who had hope towards Him, that is, those who proclaimed His advent, and submitted to His dispensations, the righteous men, the prophets, and the patriarchs, to whom He remitted sins in the same way as He did to us, which sins we should not lay to their charge, if we would not despise the grace of God. [Adv Haer 4.24.2]

For as He gave by His advent a greater privilege to those who believed on Him, and who do His will, so also did He point out that those who did not believe on Him should have a more severe punishment in the judgment; thus extending equal justice to all, and being to exact more from those to whom He gives the more; the more, however, not because He reveals the knowledge of another Father, as I have shown so fully and so repeatedly, but because He has, by means of His advent, poured upon the human race the greater gift of paternal grace. [Adv Haer 4.26.4]

If therefore, at the present time, having the earnest, we do cry, "Abba, Father," what shall it be when, on rising again, we behold Him face to face; when all the members shall burst out into a continuous hymn of triumph, glorifying Him who raised them from the dead, and gave the gift of eternal life? For if the earnest, gathering man into itself, does even now cause him to cry, "Abba, Father," what shall the complete grace of the Spirit effect, which shall be given to men by God? It will render us like unto Him, and accomplish the will(14) of the Father; for it shall make man after the image and likeness of God. [Adv Haer 5.8.1]
Now back to yšr and some surprising developments. The most comprehensive discussion is Coxon, Peter W., "A Note on the Verb yšr(APHEL) in 11 Q Tg Job XXXII, 3.." RevQ 35 (1978): 451–453.
yšr vb. C to transmit (goods, greetings)

C View a KWIC


1 to transmit (goods, greetings) OAEast, OfAEg-early, OfAEg, OfAPer. AssOstr.14 : hwšr`ln . TAD A2.1 R.4 : וכעת מטתני כתנה זי אושרתי לי now then the shirt you sent me has reached me.

2 to release, dismiss Qumran. 11QtgJob 32.3=39:3 : וחבליהן תושר [=MT חֶבְלֵיהֶם תְּשַׁלַּחְנָה] †.
But if you actually look at the Targumic fragment from Job a most surprising result appears:

Job 39:3 - you send out (get rid of) their labor pains.

יַלְדֵיהֶ֣ן תְּפַלַּ֑חְנָה חֶבְלֵיהֶ֥ם תְּשַׁלַּֽחְנָה Hebrew

תְּשַׁלַּֽחְנָה (hebrew) = תושר (aramaic)

In other words the old Aramaic y$r = the Hebrew root of the term 'apostle' שְׁלַח

Is this why Irenaeus repeatedly reports the heretics understood Jesus and Christ to be two separate people and consequently why - in the orthodox texts 'Jesus Christ' or 'Christ Jesus' are cited with robotic repetition side by side? Was Chrestos originally the Aramaic equivalent of 'Apostle'?

Irenaeus on Jesus and Christ being separate people:
Adv Haer 1.26.1 (on Cerinthus) "But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassible, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being."

ibid 1.30.13, 14 (Ophites and Sethites) "They affirm that many of his disciples were not aware of the descent of Christ into him; but that, when Christ did descend on Jesus, he then began to work miracles, and heal, and announce the unknown Father, and openly to confess himself the son of the first man. The powers and the father of Jesus were angry at these proceedings, and laboured to destroy him; and when he was being led away for this purpose, they say that Christ himself, along with Sophia, departed from him into the state of an incorruptible AEon, while Jesus was crucified. Christ, however, was not forgetful of his Jesus, but sent down a certain energy into him from above, which raised him up again in the body, which they call both animal and spiritual; for he sent the mundane parts back again into the world. When his disciples saw that he had risen, they did not recognise him--no, not even Jesus himself, by whom he rose again from the dead. And they assert that this very great error prevailed among his disciples, that they imagined he had risen in a mundane body, not knowing that "flesh and blood do not attain to the kingdom of God." They strove to establish the descent and ascent of Christ, by the fact that neither before his baptism, nor after his resurrection from the dead, do his disciples state that he did any mighty works, not being aware that Jesus was united to Christ, and the incorruptible AEon to the Hebdomad"

Adv Haer 3.11.3 "others, again, say that Jesus was born from Joseph and Mary, and that the Christ from above descended upon him, being without flesh, and impassible. But according to the opinion of no one of the heretics was the Word of God made flesh. For if any one carefully examines the systems of them all, he will find that the Word of God is brought in by all of them as not having become incarnate (sine carne) and impassible, as is also the Christ from above."

ibid 3.11.7 "Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified."

ibid 3.12.6 "But as some of these men impudently assert that the apostles, when preaching among the Jews, could not declare to them another god besides Him in whom they (their hearers) believed, we say to them, that if the apostles used to speak to people in accordance with the opinion instilled into them of old, no one learned the truth from them, nor, at a much earlier date, from the Lord; for they say that He did Himself speak after the same fashion ... also, it was a much heavier task, that He whom the Jews had seen as a man, and had fastened to the cross, should be preached as Christ the Son of God, their eternal King. Since this, however, was so, they certainly did not speak to them in accordance with their old belief. For they, who told them to their face that they were the slayers of the Lord, would themselves also much more boldly preach that Father who is above the Demiurge, and not what each individual bid himself believe [respecting God]; and the sin was much less, if indeed they had not fastened to the cross the superior Saviour (to whom it behoved them to ascend), since He was impassible. For, as they did not speak to the Gentiles in compliance with their notions, but told them with boldness that their gods were no gods, but the idols of demons"

ibid 3.16.1 "But there are some who say that Jesus was merely a receptacle of Christ, upon whom the Christ, as a dove, descended from above, and that when He had declared the unnameable Father He entered into the Pleroma in an incomprehensible and invisible manner: for that He was not comprehended, not only by men, but not even by those powers and virtues which are in heaven, and that Jesus was the Son, but that Christ was the Father, and the Father of Christ, God; while others say that He merely suffered in outward appearance, being naturally impassible. The Valentinians, again, maintain that the dispensational Jesus was the same who passed through Mary, upon whom that Saviour from the more exalted [region] descended, who was also termed Pan, because He possessed the names (vocabula) of all those who had produced Him; but that [this latter] shared with Him, the dispensational one, His power and His name; so that by His means death was abolished, but the Father was made known by that Saviour who had descended from above, whom they do also allege to be Himself the receptacle of Christ and of the entire Pleroma; confessing, indeed, in tongue one Christ Jesus, but being divided in [actual] opinion: for, as I have already observed, it is the practice of these men to say that there was one Christ, who was produced by Monogenes, for the confirmation of the Pleroma; but that another, the Saviour, was sent [forth] for the glorification of the Father; and yet another, the dispensational one, and whom they represent as having suffered, who also bore [in himself] Christ, that Saviour who returned into the Pleroma. "

ibid 3.16.6 "But inasmuch as all those before mentioned, although they certainly do with their tongue confess one Jesus Christ, make fools of themselves, thinking one thing and saying another; for their hypotheses vary, as I have already shown, alleging, [as they do,] that one Being suffered and was born, and that this was Jesus; but that there was another who descended upon Him, and that this was Christ, who also ascended again; and they argue, that he who proceeded from the Demiurge, or he who was dispensational, or he who sprang from Joseph, was the Being subject to suffering; but upon the latter there descended from the invisible and ineffable [places] the former, whom they assert to be incomprehensible, invisible, and impassible: they thus wander from the truth, because their doctrine departs from Him who is truly God, being ignorant that His only-begotten Word, who is always present with the human race, united to and mingled with His own creation, according to the Father's pleasure, and who became flesh, is Himself Jesus Christ our Lord, who did also suffer for us, and rose again on our behalf, and who will come again in the glory of His Father, to raise up all flesh, and for the manifestation of salvation, and to apply the rule of just judgment to all who were made by Him. There is therefore, as I have pointed out, one God the Father, and one Christ Jesus, who came by means of the whole dispensational arrangements [connected with Him], and gathered together all things in Himself. But in every respect, too, He is man, the formation of God; and thus He took up man into Himself, the invisible becoming visible, the incomprehensible being made comprehensible, the impassible becoming capable of suffering, and the Word being made man, thus summing up all things in Himself: so that as in super-celestial, spiritual, and invisible things, the Word of God is supreme, so also in things visible and corporeal He might possess the supremacy, and, taking to Himself the pre-eminence, as well as constituting Himself Head of the Church, He might draw all things to Himself at the proper time.

ibid 3.16.6 "Concurring with these statements, Paul, speaking to the Romans, declares: "Much more they who receive abundance of grace and righteousness for [eternal] life, shall reign by one, Christ Jesus." It follows from this, that he knew nothing of that Christ who flew away from Jesus; nor did he of the Saviour above, whom they hold to be impassible. For if, in truth, the one suffered, and the other remained incapable of suffering, and the one was born, but the other descended upon him who was born, and left him gain, it is not one, but two, that are shown forth. "

ibid 3.17.4 "these men do, in fact, set the Spirit aside altogether; they understand that Christ was one and Jesus another; and they teach that there was not one Christ, but many. And if they speak of them as united, they do again separate them: for they show that one did indeed undergo sufferings, but that the other remained impassible; that the one truly did ascend to the Pleroma, but the other remained in the intermediate place; that the one does truly feast and revel in places invisible and above all name, but that the other is seated with the Demiurge, emptying him of power."

ibid 3.18.3 "And again: "And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died;" indicating that the impassible Christ did not descend upon Jesus, but that He Himself, because He was Jesus Christ, suffered for us"

Adv Haer 4.2.4 "and He shows that all are from one essence, that is, Abraham, and Moses, and the prophets, and also the Lord Himself, who rose from the dead, in whom many believe who are of the circumcision, who do also hear Moses and the prophets announcing the coming of the Son of God. But those who scoff [at the truth] assert that these men were from another essence, and they do not know the first-begotten from the dead; understanding Christ as a distinct being, who continued as if He were impassible, and Jesus, who suffered, as being altogether separate [from Him]."

ibid 4.20.8 " In this manner, therefore, did they also see the Son of God as a man conversant with men, while they prophesied what was to happen, saying that He who was not come as yet was present proclaiming also the impassible as subject to suffering, and declaring that He who was then in heaven had descended into the dust of death."
Could it be that our recension of the NT was a reformed version of a Valentinian Greek translation of the original Hebrew (or the Aramaic translation) made in the middle of the second century?

The idea seems to be that IC was meant to suffer but Chrestos/Israel was the name of the impassable father? At the very least, in this rather confused introduction, I think we are starting to make headway on the oft-repeated idea in the Church Fathers that the heretics said that 'the apostle' was superior to Jesus. This is perhaps because Chrestos was superior to IC just as the Father was the Son. Arianism is just the final 'rectification' of this heretical 'schism'
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

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So to summarize this rather speculative investigation, I think Chrestos was a Greek translation of an underlying Aramaic terminology which in turn translated the Hebrew terminology for 'Apostle.' According to this premise by the time the Greek translation was made the concept of the sheliach became translated as two separate terms - (a) apostolos and (b) chrestos. But originally there was just one term, a terminology which originally applied to Moses. This will certainly require further refinement. I also suspect that the idea that the 'Father' became manifest in individual men in the post-resurrection period (why Christian priests are called 'fathers' and the Pope is 'grandfather') has something to do with this 'flying Chrestos' figure.
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

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Secret Alias wrote:So to summarize this rather speculative investigation, I think Chrestos was a Greek translation of an underlying Aramaic terminology which in turn translated the Hebrew terminology for 'Apostle.' According to this premise by the time the Greek translation was made the concept of the sheliach became translated as two separate terms - (a) apostolos and (b) chrestos.
It's an interesting speculation, and it certainly has some appeal as a solution.

Can anyone really explain the form XREISTOS, though? That's the most surprising form (and the most difficult, being based on neither Greek word--I'm sure there could be an appeal to TC principles to say that speaks towards its originality), and investigating it may yield something.
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

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Could it be for its numerological value? I remember Irenaeus mentioning this somewhere.
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

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Secret Alias wrote:Could it be for its numerological value? I remember Irenaeus mentioning this somewhere.
If so, then we're looking for the origin of the name of "IHSOUS XREISTOS" among Greek speakers with a penchant for numerology.

But that's the easiest answer there is. Both Irenaeus and Hippolytus say something like that, but they also say something like that for several other words (Amen, for example). We need to ask if there might have been some other, earlier meaning as well.

I suppose the 'standard story' could be that the spelling was adjusted to improve the numerological value, but again that's a facile answer. We still need to find out what the possible options might be, before deciding which of the more-obvious explanations best fits the facts.

In the passages that talk about the relationship of the letter count of the name to the number of aeons (Ogdoad = XREISTOS, 30 = IHSOUS (6) + spelled-out XREISTOS), the connection is made between IHSOUS as an exoteric name and to XREISTOS as an ineffable or hidden name. This may be a clue to the whole mystery.
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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

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Could it be another cultural dimension?

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Re: What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This T

Post by Clive »

yashar (to be upright, strong)
Is Freud of any assistance here?
but also by yielding up to him her person,
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